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Can an Ex-PR regain PR status?

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RonnieNolan
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Can an Ex-PR regain PR status?

Postby RonnieNolan » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 7:27 pm

Good day to all. I'm a young Indonesian businessman. I was a PR of Singapore before back when I was getting an education in the city-state. I turned it in when I turned 18 since I was reluctant to serve NS and be liable to have my (Indonesian) citizenship revoked under the Indonesian citizenship law (ie. no citizen can serve in the armies of foreign nations).

That said, business has been doing well and I am taking a second look at Singapore's place in my future plans and that of my business. I've been wondering if there is a way to regain the Singapore Permanent Residency (without serving NS). I was a second-generation PR, which was why I was liable for NS. If I have my parents revoke their PR status, since they don't exactly need it, can I apply for a PR as a first-generation?

Years back, when I received a Singapore citizenship offer (and I opt for PR), I was the first in my family and was counted as a first-generation and therefore not liable for NS. However, once my parents followed suit, my status changed to second-gen and my plans had to change since the NS obligation essentially boils down to whether I should choose to remain an Indonesian or become a Singaporean. I chose the former. Any businessman that had done business in Singapore and Indonesia would tell you that it is far easier to be an Indonesian businessman, doing business in Indonesia and Singapore than to be a Singaporean businessman doing business in Singapore and Indonesia.

So, here's the thing:

1. Is it possible for me to regain a Singapore PR?
2. If so, how do I go about it?
3. Can I do without serving NS? A guy in another forum said to someone in a similar predicament that "you need deep pockets to get back SPR", I'm guessing this means that I have to invest in Singapore, right?
4. If so, what is the minimum amount that is necessary? What counts as "investments"? Would that be enough to avoid NS obligation?

Thank you in advance for your replies.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 8:45 pm

Frankly, I wouldn't bet a slug nickel on you regaining PR. Unless, you are the next "real deal" which I sincerely doubt. You have avoided NS and that is the ultimate faux pas to the Singapore government. Good luck as I feel you are going to need a heck of a lot of it.

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 9:05 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, I wouldn't bet a slug nickel on you regaining PR. Unless, you are the next "real deal" which I sincerely doubt. You have avoided NS and that is the ultimate faux pas to the Singapore government. Good luck as I feel you are going to need a heck of a lot of it.


Thank you, but I'd rather know the legal clauses surrounding my question rather than depend on luck. Could you tell me about that instead?

It would be a faux pas to the Indonesian government if I were to give up my citizenship, don't you think? Any rational person would rather choose that he be able to purchase freehold title/land in 18,000 islands than a leasehold in 1.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Re: Can an Ex-PR regain PR status?

Postby taxico » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 9:08 pm

RonnieNolan wrote:...A guy in another forum said to someone in a similar predicament that "you need deep pockets to get back SPR", I'm guessing this means that I have to invest in Singapore, right?


you're kidding, right?

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Postby taxico » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 9:14 pm

RonnieNolan wrote:It would be a faux pas to the Indonesian government if I were to give up my citizenship, don't you think? Any rational person would rather choose that he be able to purchase freehold title/land in 18,000 islands than a leasehold in 1.


you have a really warped sense of entitlement. i hope they keep you out.
please read the posts in SERIOUSLY SPEAKING sub-forum for more info on what you can do in your situation.

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 9:31 pm

taxico wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:It would be a faux pas to the Indonesian government if I were to give up my citizenship, don't you think? Any rational person would rather choose that he be able to purchase freehold title/land in 18,000 islands than a leasehold in 1.


you have a really warped sense of entitlement. i hope they keep you out.
please read the posts in SERIOUSLY SPEAKING sub-forum for more info on what you can do in your situation.


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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:46 pm

Frankly, you have offended almost all of the regulars on this forum, truth be known. :-|

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Postby zzm9980 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 1:57 am

RonnieNolan wrote:Thank you, but I'd rather know the legal clauses surrounding my question rather than depend on luck. Could you tell me about that instead?


You seem to be a smart guy; do some forum searches. There are no legal clauses about this. All laws are intentionally vague in order to give ICA / MOM (ICA in your case) as much lee-way as possible to do as they wish with applicants.

In your case, like SMS said, you intentionally avoided NS. NS is one of the magic buttons for Singapore PR. Serve it (or volunteer up some male heirs who will), and it goes a long way towards granting PR. Avoid it, and you're lower on the gahmen's shit-list than a recently PR'd Indian who is now renting out his 5 room HDB and back in Chennai. Quite frankly, the only way you could probably make your case worse would be by being Indian.

Unless you're looking to invest at least 8 digits of money into something the gahmen tells you to, I wouldn't even bother trying to get your PR back.

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Re: Can an Ex-PR regain PR status?

Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 4:43 am

RonnieNolan wrote:Good day to all. I'm a young Indonesian businessman. I was a PR of Singapore before back when I was getting an education in the city-state. I turned it in when I turned 18 since I was reluctant to serve NS and be liable to have my (Indonesian) citizenship revoked under the Indonesian citizenship law (ie. no citizen can serve in the armies of foreign nations).

That said, business has been doing well and I am taking a second look at Singapore's place in my future plans and that of my business. I've been wondering if there is a way to regain the Singapore Permanent Residency (without serving NS). I was a second-generation PR, which was why I was liable for NS. If I have my parents revoke their PR status, since they don't exactly need it, can I apply for a PR as a first-generation?

Years back, when I received a Singapore citizenship offer (and I opt for PR), I was the first in my family and was counted as a first-generation and therefore not liable for NS. However, once my parents followed suit, my status changed to second-gen and my plans had to change since the NS obligation essentially boils down to whether I should choose to remain an Indonesian or become a Singaporean. I chose the former. Any businessman that had done business in Singapore and Indonesia would tell you that it is far easier to be an Indonesian businessman, doing business in Indonesia and Singapore than to be a Singaporean businessman doing business in Singapore and Indonesia.

So, here's the thing:

1. Is it possible for me to regain a Singapore PR?
2. If so, how do I go about it?
3. Can I do without serving NS? A guy in another forum said to someone in a similar predicament that "you need deep pockets to get back SPR", I'm guessing this means that I have to invest in Singapore, right?
4. If so, what is the minimum amount that is necessary? What counts as "investments"? Would that be enough to avoid NS obligation?

Thank you in advance for your replies.




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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 9:19 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, you have offended almost all of the regulars on this forum, truth be known. :-|


I'm still not sure why you would be offended, but I'm sorry for that. Still, I maintain my God-given right to speak freely. I have no desire to offend anyone. All I want is to know how to come up with a proposal the ICA cannot refuse. Just thought that in this great forum where plenty of people had dealings with the ICA before, there is bound to be someone who can answer my questions.
Last edited by RonnieNolan on Sun, 23 Dec 2012 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 9:47 am

zzm9980 wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:Thank you, but I'd rather know the legal clauses surrounding my question rather than depend on luck. Could you tell me about that instead?


You seem to be a smart guy; do some forum searches. There are no legal clauses about this. All laws are intentionally vague in order to give ICA / MOM (ICA in your case) as much lee-way as possible to do as they wish with applicants.

In your case, like SMS said, you intentionally avoided NS. NS is one of the magic buttons for Singapore PR. Serve it (or volunteer up some male heirs who will), and it goes a long way towards granting PR. Avoid it, and you're lower on the gahmen's shit-list than a recently PR'd Indian who is now renting out his 5 room HDB and back in Chennai. Quite frankly, the only way you could probably make your case worse would be by being Indian.

Unless you're looking to invest at least 8 digits of money into something the gahmen tells you to, I wouldn't even bother trying to get your PR back.


I see, it's a good thing if they have decided to give themselves that much scope and decision-making power. So, I'm guessing this means that application proposal would be judged on its own merit, right?

As for NS, as I've mentioned countless times before, it's non-negotiable for me. I cannot give up my Indonesian citizenship since it offers plenty of perks that foreign nationals can never obtain. For one, Indonesian citizens and companies (legal entities) may own freehold (ownership in perpetuity) titles over land while foreigners may never have that advantage. For foreigners and foreign companies (including Indonesian resident companies owned by foreigners), even getting a leasehold is a controversial issue and there's bound to be nationalist parties at local and national levels that would use that to shake them down for some cash.

All I want is a Singapore PR, not a Singapore citizenship. While Indonesian institutions remains weak and I do not have to worry about enforcement anytime soon even if I do serve in NS (which brings up its own question of productive allocation of time due to its extremely poor pay), this premise would change as rule of law becomes more dominant. Politics at all levels in Indonesia is constantly changing and I cannot rule such an eventuality out. If an attentive bureaucrat would someday go through my files and records, I could become stateless. Not to mention that such a record would kill off any chance I have of running for public office.

I intend to use Singapore primarily to reduce the tax exposure of my businesses in Indonesia and perhaps for those in other parts of ASEAN in the near future. Of course, there is some opportunities to expand operation and capitalize on Singapore's high income per-capita, despite its very small market. Additionally, it would be good to get a condominium for vacations to Singapore. While none of the things I mentioned require the ownership of a PR per-se, they do simplify and make things more convenient. And I believe that is the bottom line here.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby nakatago » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 9:57 am

RonnieNolan wrote:While none of the things I mentioned require the ownership of a PR per-se, they do simplify and make things more convenient. And I believe that is the bottom line here.



Image

#facepalm

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:04 am

nakatago wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:While none of the things I mentioned require the ownership of a PR per-se, they do simplify and make things more convenient. And I believe that is the bottom line here.



Image

#facepalm


Do I happen to be mistaken here? Would you care to tell me where I got wrong? From what I've been reading about corporate ownership in Singapore, foreigners may own companies that operate there, just that they need to appoint a resident director and secretary. As for purchasing condos, I could be mistaken, but I've had friends and families who's been snapping up condos in Singapore. And while I did not ask directly, they don't seem to be PR holders from the hints I can gather. Of course, my assessment could be wrong, so please enlighten.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 10:35 am

There you go. You guys think only Indians are abusers of PR. I have mentioned this before abusers are everywhere only difference being Indians can communicate in English and post in forums like this while many other emerging market citizens cannot.

Another difference is. Indians don't consider abuse as abuse as in our country we have to do it, kind of survival of fittest. Other countries people know it is bad yet they do it but don't tell publically.

Next thing not all Indians are abusers. The good ones remain in India or go to UK or US. The mediocre wannabe successfuls find their way to Singapore an hence you guys get that impression that all are abusers.

And zzm, being an American is worse off than being an Indian as far as PR chances are concerned, because percentage wise more of you guys have abused it than Indians :-|

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 11:40 am

Wd40 wrote:There you go. You guys think only Indians are abusers of PR. I have mentioned this before abusers are everywhere only difference being Indians can communicate in English and post in forums like this while many other emerging market citizens cannot.

Another difference is. Indians don't consider abuse as abuse as in our country we have to do it, kind of survival of fittest. Other countries people know it is bad yet they do it but don't tell publically.

Next thing not all Indians are abusers. The good ones remain in India or go to UK or US. The mediocre wannabe successfuls find their way to Singapore an hence you guys get that impression that all are abusers.

And zzm, being an American is worse off than being an Indian as far as PR chances are concerned, because percentagewise you guys have abused it more than Indians :-|


Are you insinuating that I'm abusing the law or something? :? For your information, I've never brushed with the law of any country. Everything I have done is in accordance with the law and the fullest extent of its words, wherever I have stepped on.

The US and the UK are good markets, but you would be foolish to think that any rational individual, much less a business, would find their tax rates acceptable. That is why many American and British multinationals place their official headquarters or profitable business units in places like Liechtenstein, Cayman Islands and Bermuda. Southeast Asian businessmen like Singapore for the same reason. It can help them to legally minimize their tax exposure. Those who abuse the law would simply pay off tax officials to artificially reduce their income statement and this is illegal (its tax evasion) & immoral. Law-abiding citizens like me would do the best for our shareholders while keeping with the fullest extent of the law.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln


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