Regarding legal issues of renouncing PR before NS

[jeff_pineapple]

Hi! This is Jeff. I have a few questions regarding PR/NS matters. I understand that similar topics have been discussed before, but I have found much conflicting information online, and my case is slightly different... I would be extremely grateful if you could take some time to answer them!

Firstly, just some info:
-I am currently 16,
-I live in SG with my family and study here,
-I was born in Singapore as 2nd-gen PRs (my parents were SG PRs and China citizens),
-A few years ago, my father converted to Singapore citizenship (my mother, brother, and I are still PRs)

As much as I want to stay in Singapore where I have lived most of my life so far, I am looking for the possibility of renouncing my PR status before I am enlisted into NS and after I have been admitted into a foreign university (I am currently aiming to study in the US).

I've tried looking for information online for this, but have found many conflicting ones. Please take a look at these:

>>>According to this website's Guide to NS Issues: "PR can be given up at any time. If you do not wish to serve, simply give up your PR at ICA. This allows you to legally avoid NS.... Note that giving up PR will have an adverse effect on any future immigration dealings with Singapore. Travelling and social visits on temporary visas should be no problem at all, while re-applying for PR and citizenship is probably out of the question."
(http://www.singaporeexpats.com/resource ... -to-ns.htm)

>>>This Straits Times article said something similar a few years back: "Some PRs choose to renounce their PR status rather than do NS. Those who do so without serving NS face "serious consequences", says Mindef... It is generally understood that "serious consequences" refer to the difficulty associated with getting one's PR status back or obtaining a work visa to work in Singapore."
(http://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/ips/wp-content ... 020612.pdf)

>>>This is from an article on AsiaOne: "any immediate or future applications for renewal of their parents' and immediate family members' Re-Entry Permits may be adversely affected, including curtailment of the Re-Entry Permit". However, he did not say how many such applications had been affected..."
(http://news.asiaone.com/news/singapore/ ... study-here)

So, after reading these 3 sources, my understanding is that if I renounce my PR status at around 18, I WILL face difficulty in coming back to Singapore to work or live in the future, but I WILL NOT be treated as a "deserter" liable to be convicted once I set foot in Singapore (i.e. I can still travel here on temporary visas).

HOWEVER, another thread on this forum (http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/viewtopic.php?t=108359) has comments saying that the person who posted WILL be treated as a deserter and be arrested when he set foot in Singapore. People also said something about having to start the renunciation process before 13 (or even 11, like with citizens). Why is this so? All of the other sites I read up on stated that renouncing PR before NS will only result in future difficulty in living or working here (but visiting is ok), but those comments said PRs who do so will be treated as essentially criminals, not being allowed to even visit.

Which is true? Are those comments on the other thread due to a confusion, or is it because of a lesser-heard law which holds PRs criminally responsible for renouncing PR status to skip NS? Also, like the 3rd quote above, will my renouncement of my PR status affect my family (if they remain behind as PRs, for example, after I leave)?

My sincere apologies for the long post. There are a lot of conflicting information, and I am very confused. I and really hope you could be so kind as to give me some answers to clarify my doubts... I also hope that whatever discussion that goes on can be helpful to others as well!

Thanks

[PNGMK]

Yes, you face being charged as a deserter. The process of renunciation should have been started earlier; have your parents or you begun that prior to 13? For example do you have an NRIC? Are you in a local school? I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

[jeff_pineapple]

Yes, you face being charged as a deserter. The process of renunciation should have been started earlier; have your parents or you begun that prior to 13? For example do you have an NRIC? Are you in a local school? I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice.

Yes, I do have an NRIC, and am studying in a local school for many years after I lived for a period overseas. But what you said about being charged as a deserter... as I said in my post, I didn't read that anywhere except on this Singapore Expats forum. All the other websites I read says that the only consequence of my renunciation of PR is future difficulty in working or living here.

May I know where you've read that I will be charged as a deserter? Is there a website or an article or something? Perhaps you can give me a link? Thanks a lot!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Actually, PNGMK, he is correct. He can renounce before his NS but he will lose all right to employment passes, PR or Citizenship in the future. He will also not be given a LTVP either and in all possibility he will only be given a 30 day tourist visa (even is he's a citizen of the 90 visa country), non-renewable. They don't like users here and have a very long memory. We were incorrect several years ago, due, like the OP has found, to conflicting information. We've always tended to opt for maximum penalty rather than blow smoke up anybody's arse by telling them it would be no problem. A lot of that information wasn't readily available when we started those threads all those years ago.

[PNGMK]

Right ok. I concur with SMS. Desertion I guess only happens once OP has been called up but not before.

[BBCWatcher]

One important aspect you'll have to consider very carefully is the inevitable family separation that avoiding NS would mean. You won't be able to live in Singapore, ever. To be realistic, you have to plan for the possibility you wouldn't be able to visit/transit Singapore either. So, to pick an example, if (when) your father gets sick, you won't be with him very long if at all.

Avoiding NS is something like divorcing Singapore (and against Singapore's will), including the people in Singapore while they're in Singapore (family and friends). Rarely, ex-spouses meet after a divorce, but you cannot count on it. It sounds like your entire family, even extended family, lives in Singapore. As long as they're in Singapore you're not going to see them very often.

Another major factor to consider is where you could legally live. It sounds like the answer is mainland China only. Would you be OK moving to mainland China after/between your university studies? You'll have to be -- you're betting on China in this decision. That could be "interesting" since you were born in Singapore and, presumably, have never lived in China.

In short, there are some heavy personal consequences in this decision.

[sundaymorningstaple]

BBCW. Not true. There is no prohibition on visiting Singapore as long as he gives up his PR BEFORE he is called up. If he tries it after his call-up THEN he will be considered a deserter and and all bets are off as he could be, as noted, possibly even picked up in transit. But as long as he legally gives up his PR before his call up. He's okay coming in on a tourist visa. (Granted, they could change this anytime but I think that they would really be shooting themselves in the foot.)

As far as the poster having to live in China, in a couple of years after the Chinese fishing armada floods the Philippine Islands in the next day or so, and calls their bluff, and the US backs down. All of S.E. Asia will be vassals of China anyway. Singapore is like their little lapdog already.

[BBCWatcher]

BBCW. Not true.

(Sigh.) Please read what I wrote again. I wrote it very precisely and carefully.

There is no prohibition on visiting Singapore as long as he gives up his PR BEFORE he is called up.

There is currently no prohibition, and I didn't write that there is. However, foreigners never have a right of entry into Singapore. An ex-PR (and every other foreigner) must be prepared for the possibility of being denied entry into Singapore. Exactly the word I wrote: possibility.

This is not a radical notion and ought not be controversial. If I get on a plane to Botswana -- not a country that has granted me its citizenship or residence -- I'm prepared for the possibility I won't be admitted. Whereupon, I get on the next plane out. Fortunately there's nobody living in Botswana that I care about except in the abstract (my general concern for humanity).

Foreigners are denied entry into Singapore every day.

(Granted, they could change this anytime....)

Exactly, and based on an individual-level or cohort-level decision.

[sundaymorningstaple]

FFS! Your constant hair-splitting only serves to confuse readers on this board. I feel sorry for the members in your household.

[Strong Eagle]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

[BBCWatcher]

Your constant hair-splitting only serves to confuse readers on this board.

No, absolutely not. There is no "hair-splitting" here. Just careful, precise English for those with high/secondary school level English reading comprehension or better.

There is a big, real difference between the entry rights of PRs and the entry conditions for foreigners (including ex-PRs). This is a very important distinction, and important to highlight, especially for somebody with family and friends in Singapore. It's not ambiguous, it's not a mere footnote, and it's not controversial.

In the case of this ex-PR (if that's the decision), it is reasonable, logical to forecast that his foreigner status will be for life, irrevocably. That's unlike most other foreigners who at least have the possibility, at some point in the future, of obtaining a different immigration status in Singapore (e.g. Employment Pass, PR).

On top of all that, I would point out that citizens of China with ordinary Chinese passports currently require prearranged visas to enter Singapore. They do not have visa waiver privileges. The Singaporean government is also under no obligation to grant a visa.

This s**t is real. Let's be precise and accurate.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Just careful, precise English for those with high/secondary school level English reading comprehension or better.

Which is also the way all the information on the MOM and ICA sites and various applications forms are written as well. So it's very surprising that we get any question regarding the stuff written in those sites by our posters here, isn't it as according to you they should at least have that level of English.

Of course it's not surprising! You are assuming that all speakers of English on the board are native English speakers. Most of those asking those kinds of questions are not. You already know how atrocious the level of English is right here in Singapore and you are assuming that all it's 3rd world neighbours trying to come here speak 'careful, precise English' or even understand the nuances of same, let alone the long-windiness of it?

That's probably why I get so many questions via PM.

[Mad Scientist]

^^^^^^^^Perxactly ^^^^^^^^^^^
I am no good in the debating chamber that is why I refuse to reply many PM and open poster because this forum has one very "smart dude" who seems to have a fountain of knowledge from MR GOOGLE University.

[Mad Scientist]

Btw I am surprised for a person that does not even serve NS nor a citizen of Singapore let alone works in MINDEF or ICA or for that matter in any Singapore Ministries can award himself to be "guru" or so it seems ..........Anyway what do I know, I know nothing.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Tell you what MS, I'd like to have half of your nothingness! Little rough on the outside occasionally, but a regular treasure trove of the Little Red Dot's inner workings. I'll tip me hat to you any day of the week.