Renouncing Citizenship with NS Issue

[Wasabi88]

Hi all,

Happy New Year I am seeking advice/guidance on my situation below and would appreciate any help.

Background:

• In my 30s now.

• Immigrated to Country X at 2 years of age with my Singaporean parents.

• Singapore Passport issued ~20 days after birth and used to travel to one country at 1.5 months old and to Country X at age 2. Not used at any other point and has since expired. No attempts have been made to renew.

• Parents contacted CMPB when I was 5, informing CMPB of my intention to renounce my citizenship and have already successfully been granted citizenship in Country X.

• CMPB provided the following advice:
  • NS deferred to age 21 however I must register for NS and apply for an Exit Permit at 16.5 years and, at 21 years, 'He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change to his citizenship status'.
  • Bond is not required.
  • CMPB will contact again when I am 16.5 years with further documentation.

The following has since occurred (Or not occurred!):

• CMPB did not send further correspondence to me at 16.5 years (or ever since).

• I did not register for National Service or obtain an Exit Permit at 16.5 years.

• I have visited Singapore a few times in my 20s, using Country X's passport and have had no issues.

Other notes:

• I am not aware of exercising any citizenship privileges/benefits other that being issued a passport and having travelled at a very young age. I have no NRIC card or have not schooled in Singapore.

• I am wanting to raise this now as I was not aware of my obligations as a Singapore citizen until raised recently by a friend - it was only until after I asked my parents that the above correspondence was raised.

Questions I have:

1. I would like to submit an application to formally renounce my citizenship - what are the chances of being exempt from NS to allow this to happen (given my circumstances?).
2. Are there other things I should be doing pre-emptively before submitting an application?
3. Why have I been able to travel into Singapore without incident?
4. I have read through a similar case and wanted to know if there was anything else I need to consider (Other that completely avoid Singapore)?

(envoy91 -viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557). [/list]

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. Appreciate there is fault on my end for not meeting specific obligations under the Enlistment Act, however would like to understand what the next steps should be to remedy this, if at all possible. I will not risk travelling to Singapore until this is resolved.

Hoping that SMS and MadScientist still frequent these forums as they appear to be the experts here, however any help is appreciated!

[Mad Scientist]

There are missing links here. I cannot join the dots
BTW do not PM ME

[Wasabi88]

There are missing links here. I cannot join the dots
BTW do not PM ME

Hi Mad Scientist, thanks for responding. Apologies for not being clear. What further information is missing?

Noted re do not PM. As I’m a newbie I cannot PM currently anyway

[Pal]

This link:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557

Above link is clickable, it shows a few dots cos the forum truncate linked text which is too long for the layout.

There are missing links here. I cannot join the dots
BTW do not PM ME

[sundaymorningstaple]

This link:
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557

Above link is clickable, it shows a few dots cos the forum truncate linked text which is too long for the layout.

There are missing links here. I cannot join the dots
BTW do not PM ME

Pal, MS is referring to the OP's initial post. The train of thought or items/functions have some gaps not filled in sufficiently for MS to gain a more thorough picture of what has transpired thus far and when. Nothing to do with the truncated hyperlink. It was why I didn't comment earlier as well. I thought I'd give credence to MS have a read over it before I stuck my foot in. (We've worked in tandem for many years now so we pretty much understand each other). I'd actually typed out a response much earlier shortly after it was posted, but I couldn't connect a few of the dots either so I thought I wait for MS to enter the courtyard.

[Pal]

Oh ok got it

[Wasabi88]

Thanks all, appreciate the feedback. I can't seem to be able to edit my original post, so I've retyped the existing information to hopefully tell the story a little better - please let me know if anything is unclear.

I was born in Singapore to my Singaporean parents and immigrated to a different country at the age of 2. When we obtained citizenship in our country of residence (I was 5 years old at the time), my father wrote the CMPB to request exemption of my National Service, on the basis that I intend to renounce my Singaporean citizenship. My parents have both renounced their citizenship.

CMBP had granted a deferral for my National Service until age 21, provided I register for National Service at age 16.5. The bond also would not apply. They also said "He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change in his citizenship status".

The letter also stated that further documentation will be provided when I turn 16.5 years however my family never received any. Because I was unaware of the correspondence (and NS obligations), as well as my father not prompting me at the time, I did not register for National Service at age 16.5.

From this time until now (I am now in my 30s), I have not been aware of the requirements of National Service and have not yet formally renounced my citizenship. I have been able to travel to Singapore (both into the country and via transit) using my foreign passport without any issues.

If it is still possible, I would like to clear this up and formally renounce my citizenship with Singapore, and I wanted to ask the experts on this forum for their guidance on how to approach the delicate NS issue.

I have read through the NS Guide on this forum and have put answers against them (https://www.singaporeexpats.com/resourc ... -to-ns.htm):

1) has another citizenship before the age of 11 Yes
2) informs Mindef of his intention to renounce Singaporean citizenship and applies for the necessary exit permits from the age of 13 and obtains deferment at 18 Informed MINDEF, however did not apply for the exit permits
3) does not use or benefit from Singaporean citizenship after 11 Only Issued a passport ~20 days post birth, one travel at 6 weeks old and travel to my now resident country. Passport has since expired and no other travel has been conducted
4) finally renounces Singaporean citizenship at 21 Have not completed

[Mad Scientist]

Just in case someone being naughty

Hi all,

Happy New Year I am seeking advice/guidance on my situation below and would appreciate any help.

Background:

• In my 30s now.

• Immigrated to Country X at 2 years of age with my Singaporean parents.

• Singapore Passport issued ~20 days after birth and used to travel to one country at 1.5 months old and to Country X at age 2. Not used at any other point and has since expired. No attempts have been made to renew.

• Parents contacted CMPB when I was 5, informing CMPB of my intention to renounce my citizenship and have already successfully been granted citizenship in Country X.

• CMPB provided the following advice:
  • NS deferred to age 21 however I must register for NS and apply for an Exit Permit at 16.5 years and, at 21 years, 'He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change to his citizenship status'.
  • Bond is not required.
  • CMPB will contact again when I am 16.5 years with further documentation.

The following has since occurred (Or not occurred!):

• CMPB did not send further correspondence to me at 16.5 years (or ever since).

• I did not register for National Service or obtain an Exit Permit at 16.5 years.

• I have visited Singapore a few times in my 20s, using Country X's passport and have had no issues.

Other notes:

• I am not aware of exercising any citizenship privileges/benefits other that being issued a passport and having travelled at a very young age. I have no NRIC card or have not schooled in Singapore.

• I am wanting to raise this now as I was not aware of my obligations as a Singapore citizen until raised recently by a friend - it was only until after I asked my parents that the above correspondence was raised.

Questions I have:

1. I would like to submit an application to formally renounce my citizenship - what are the chances of being exempt from NS to allow this to happen (given my circumstances?).
2. Are there other things I should be doing pre-emptively before submitting an application?
3. Why have I been able to travel into Singapore without incident?
4. I have read through a similar case and wanted to know if there was anything else I need to consider (Other that completely avoid Singapore)?

(envoy91 -viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557). [/list]

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. Appreciate there is fault on my end for not meeting specific obligations under the Enlistment Act, however would like to understand what the next steps should be to remedy this, if at all possible. I will not risk travelling to Singapore until this is resolved.

Hoping that SMS and MadScientist still frequent these forums as they appear to be the experts here, however any help is appreciated!

[Mad Scientist]

Hi all,

Happy New Year I am seeking advice/guidance on my situation below and would appreciate any help.

Background:

• In my 30s now.

• Immigrated to Country X at 2 years of age with my Singaporean parents.

• Singapore Passport issued ~20 days after birth and used to travel to one country at 1.5 months old and to Country X at age 2. Not used at any other point and has since expired. No attempts have been made to renew.

• Parents contacted CMPB when I was 5, informing CMPB of my intention to renounce my citizenship and have already successfully been granted citizenship in Country X.

• CMPB provided the following advice:
  • NS deferred to age 21 however I must register for NS and apply for an Exit Permit at 16.5 years and, at 21 years, 'He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change to his citizenship status'.
  • Bond is not required.
  • CMPB will contact again when I am 16.5 years with further documentation.

The following has since occurred (Or not occurred!):

• CMPB did not send further correspondence to me at 16.5 years (or ever since).

• I did not register for National Service or obtain an Exit Permit at 16.5 years.

• I have visited Singapore a few times in my 20s, using Country X's passport and have had no issues.

Other notes:

• I am not aware of exercising any citizenship privileges/benefits other that being issued a passport and having travelled at a very young age. I have no NRIC card or have not schooled in Singapore.

• I am wanting to raise this now as I was not aware of my obligations as a Singapore citizen until raised recently by a friend - it was only until after I asked my parents that the above correspondence was raised.

Questions I have:

1. I would like to submit an application to formally renounce my citizenship - what are the chances of being exempt from NS to allow this to happen (given my circumstances?).
2. Are there other things I should be doing pre-emptively before submitting an application?
3. Why have I been able to travel into Singapore without incident?
4. I have read through a similar case and wanted to know if there was anything else I need to consider (Other that completely avoid Singapore)?

(envoy91 -viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557). [/list]

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. Appreciate there is fault on my end for not meeting specific obligations under the Enlistment Act, however would like to understand what the next steps should be to remedy this, if at all possible. I will not risk travelling to Singapore until this is resolved.

Hoping that SMS and MadScientist still frequent these forums as they appear to be the experts here, however any help is appreciated!

[Mad Scientist]

OP
Please see my questions and answers

• Singapore Passport issued ~20 days after birth and used to travel to one country at 1.5 months old and to Country X at age 2. Not used at any other point and has since expired. No attempts have been made to renew.

OK

• Parents contacted CMPB when I was 5, informing CMPB of my intention to renounce my citizenship and have already successfully been granted citizenship in Country X.

• CMPB provided the following advice:
  • NS deferred to age 21 however I must register for NS and apply for an Exit Permit at 16.5 years and, at 21 years, 'He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change to his citizenship status'.
  • Bond is not required.
  • CMPB will contact again when I am 16.5 years with further documentation.

This is the twist that I am puzzling. CMPB requires you to register yourself for an Exit Permit at 13 not 16.5
Does not add up does it ? You are about my sons age and I went down the beaten track to the "T" prior renunciation



The following has since occurred (Or not occurred!):

• CMPB did not send further correspondence to me at 16.5 years (or ever since).

• I did not register for National Service or obtain an Exit Permit at 16.5 years.

Two possibilities
1. Your parent/s did not update the last contact details when you are overseas hence they cannot send the notification
2. It is onto yourself to inform them on your last intention
3. If CMPB states 16.5 to register, where is the proof
Do you have proof to provide ? This is important to hold you on good stead to make your case

• I have visited Singapore a few times in my 20s, using Country X's passport and have had no issues.

Possibility is the foreign passport bearer does not match the SG passport that you held before

Other notes:

• I am not aware of exercising any citizenship privileges/benefits other that being issued a passport and having travelled at a very young age. I have no NRIC card or have not schooled in Singapore.

• I am wanting to raise this now as I was not aware of my obligations as a Singapore citizen until raised recently by a friend - it was only until after I asked my parents that the above correspondence was raised.

Questions I have:

1. I would like to submit an application to formally renounce my citizenship - what are the chances of being exempt from NS to allow this to happen (given my circumstances?).
2. Are there other things I should be doing pre-emptively before submitting an application?
3. Why have I been able to travel into Singapore without incident?
4. I have read through a similar case and wanted to know if there was anything else I need to consider (Other that completely avoid Singapore)?

What is the reason that you want to go through this if you already mention that you have passed through border control without a hitch

(envoy91 -viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557). [/list]

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. Appreciate there is fault on my end for not meeting specific obligations under the Enlistment Act, however would like to understand what the next steps should be to remedy this, if at all possible. I will not risk travelling to Singapore until this is resolved.

Hoping that SMS and MadScientist still frequent these forums as they appear to be the experts here, however any help is appreciated!
[/quote]

[Wasabi88]

Thank you MS for your prompt response. Please let me know if anything is unclear.

OP
Please see my questions and answers

• Singapore Passport issued ~20 days after birth and used to travel to one country at 1.5 months old and to Country X at age 2. Not used at any other point and has since expired. No attempts have been made to renew.

OK

• Parents contacted CMPB when I was 5, informing CMPB of my intention to renounce my citizenship and have already successfully been granted citizenship in Country X.

• CMPB provided the following advice:
  • NS deferred to age 21 however I must register for NS and apply for an Exit Permit at 16.5 years and, at 21 years, 'He will then be required to do his National Service if there is no change to his citizenship status'.
  • Bond is not required.
  • CMPB will contact again when I am 16.5 years with further documentation.

This is the twist that I am puzzling. CMPB requires you to register yourself for an Exit Permit at 13 not 16.5 The letter from CMPB only states 16.5, in two separate letters. The first letter gave the guidance 'At the age of 16.5 years, he is required to register for Nation Service and apply for an Exit Permit to remain overseas'. The second letter, did not mention the Exit Permit, but did state I must register for NS at 16.5 years. I have assumed that the first letter applies to the second letter regarding the Exit Permit.
Does not add up does it ? You are about my sons age and I went down the beaten track to the "T" prior renunciation

The following has since occurred (Or not occurred!):

• CMPB did not send further correspondence to me at 16.5 years (or ever since).

• I did not register for National Service or obtain an Exit Permit at 16.5 years.

Two possibilities
1. Your parent/s did not update the last contact details when you are overseas hence they cannot send the notification. Possibly. We had moved houses and I'm unsure if my family records were updated
2. It is onto yourself to inform them on your last intention Agreed
3. If CMPB states 16.5 to register, where is the proof
Do you have proof to provide ? This is important to hold you on good stead to make your case Yes, I have this in writing with the MINDEF letterhead/CMPB foonote

• I have visited Singapore a few times in my 20s, using Country X's passport and have had no issues.

Possibility is the foreign passport bearer does not match the SG passport that you held before Acknowledged. My name hasn't changed but appreciate there may be a mismatch somewhere

Other notes:

• I am not aware of exercising any citizenship privileges/benefits other that being issued a passport and having travelled at a very young age. I have no NRIC card or have not schooled in Singapore.

• I am wanting to raise this now as I was not aware of my obligations as a Singapore citizen until raised recently by a friend - it was only until after I asked my parents that the above correspondence was raised.

Questions I have:

1. I would like to submit an application to formally renounce my citizenship - what are the chances of being exempt from NS to allow this to happen (given my circumstances?).
2. Are there other things I should be doing pre-emptively before submitting an application?
3. Why have I been able to travel into Singapore without incident?
4. I have read through a similar case and wanted to know if there was anything else I need to consider (Other that completely avoid Singapore)?

What is the reason that you want to go through this if you already mention that you have passed through border control without a hitch Because until I looked into the matter I didn't know of the potential obligations that I held to Singapore, and the severe penalties that come with it. I have my own family in my residential country now and while I could take the route of avoiding Singapore altogether, it would be unfortunate not to be able to go back and let them visit with me. Rolling the dice to to visit because it worked before seems like too much a risk considering the punishment.

(envoy91 -viewtopic.php?f=55&t=147341&p=864557&hi ... ce#p864557). [/list]

Thank you in advance for your help/guidance. Appreciate there is fault on my end for not meeting specific obligations under the Enlistment Act, however would like to understand what the next steps should be to remedy this, if at all possible. I will not risk travelling to Singapore until this is resolved.

Hoping that SMS and MadScientist still frequent these forums as they appear to be the experts here, however any help is appreciated!

[/quote]

[Mad Scientist]

You ,my friend, albeit your Dad has misinterpreted the whole NS guideline wrongly
Register you must for NS at the age 0f 16.5 which includes medical examination
Leaving the country after the age of 13 for more than 3 months require Exit Permit. That first letter clearly indicated this. This is the missing link
Second letter to emphasis the importance of first letter you received
If your Dad served NS , surely he knew about this Exit Permit as this encompasses both pre-enlistees and NS men till age of 40 or 50
It is very binary . Black and white
https://www.cmpb.gov.sg/web/portal/cmpb ... t-and-bond
Your family moved houses and did not update with ICA your forwarded address. Hence no notification nor snail email arrived
If you wish to visit SG just for the social visit , a JB get together sounds a better option

Now the hard part
I am not advocating you to do anything illegal. There is no right or wrong
What is done cannot be undone as your parents skewed this big time not you. Now you are facing the music with this mess hanging over your head
If you want to go clean, fine you will get, Jail time very slim . NS liabilities almost zero but not entirely sure as goalposts has moved many times and I am no longer well verse with the latest updates
Only then renunciation is possible
Or
Having third nationality with deed poll might work

[Wasabi88]

Thanks MS for your guidance and honest opinion.

I agree that this is ultimately my responsibility and I'll need the play the hand I'm dealt with.

I am keen to put this behind me and contact CMPB and request for an exemption in hopes they will be lenient in my case.

Thanks again, not sure if SMS still wanted to weigh in on the matter, but I have really appreciated all the help thus far.

[Mad Scientist]

OP
What you are going to do is commendable . Good on you !!
Thread carefully when dealing with the Gahmen. It can go south very quickly
I really meant what I said. This goes to all comms.
Like SMS said "they have very long memory and vindictive"

For me, do not rock the boat, if you can prevent it
Weigh all the options. What they do not know, they do not know
If just for social visit , why do you want to go through all this uncertainty ?Seriously ??
Every case is treated on its merit. The minute they have your contact, you are at their mercy. Good luck to you
You are a citizen of another nation,
You have no CPF , no IC , no economic benefits weighted on you, nothing unless you are not telling us that your Dad is a white horse then all bets are off

[Wasabi88]

Thanks MS. Lots of articles I've read have gone that way it seems, particularly for overseas stayers. I was hopeful when I found envoy91's post and outcome.

I agree its a gamble and I'll be at their mercy, but then I have a clear answer as to my position with Singapore. Either way if I don't attempt to resolve I will never have the chance to go back in peace.

In my head it is:

1. Do nothing, avoid Singapore at all costs
2. Do nothing, attempt to go back to Singapore and risk getting detained/jailed/fined. The punishment being heftier as I grow older
3. Unsuccessful NS liability exemption, now officially on their radar, avoid Singapore at all costs
4. Successful NS liability exemption (either by their discretion or via a fine), successful renunciation, no worries going to Singapore (No chance at PR or Work Permit etc, which is fine)

I initially posted on this forum to understand, given my particular circumstances, if I have a chance for an NS exemption. For most people, its been a flat out 'No' as they have some form of material benefit. From what I gather, I think mine is a 'maybe'?

I have spoken with my father to confirm again - Yes, I definitely do not have any of the mentioned benefits, just an expired passport (which I know could be seen as a benefit if they wanted to be very strict).