US university admissions

[malcontent]

Starting a new thread to continue the conversation on this topic. Some of the key challenges that locally educated students from here are facing:

1. Grade inflation: this is a real phenomenon happening in the world outside of the Singapore. What would count as a B or C grade here can get an A elsewhere in the world, but admissions officers treat A grades as equal.

2. Test optional: post-Covid, most admissions continue to be test optional - making it even easier for applicants with inflated grades to flood schools with applications, and they have.

3. Asian bias: many schools discriminate based on race in an attempt to level the playing field for races that perform poorly, and handicap races that perform better. This is especially unfair to Asian students who tend to have the highest test scores.

4. Gender bias: because women tend to be better students than men, there are more of them applying to universities. In order to level the playing field, fewer women are accepted than men.

5. Residency bias: in the past many public universities would accept large numbers of international and out of state students because state budgets were strained. That has now changed and public schools are now giving preference to in-state students.

6. English bias: some schools (like the University or Texas) do not recognize Singapore as being an English speaking country and students from here have to take TOEFL to be accepted. Often this requirement is waived for US citizen applicants, but it’s not always clear.

Interestingly, schools in Singapore that had large numbers of students applying to US universities have apparently gotten flack for it and have now greatly curtailed their support in terms of counseling and assistance to potential applicants from their schools. My daughter’s JC has practically no support whatsoever and anyone who is not pursuing local universities is seen as a square peg.

For applicants who are US citizens in Singapore, how they are treated (as an international or domestic student) also seems to be inconsistent. This can be a critical factor as many school impose quotas on the number of international students they accept. Most colleges proclaim that they evaluate each applicant in the context of their educational environment and the opportunities they had.

Some universities also appear to be biased against Singapore educated students because of the perception that they are not as well rounded and for the population of Singapore, tend to be overrepresented in terms of applicants per capita versus countries with larger populations.

Did I miss anything?

[PNGMK]

Interesting summary Mal. I'll share it with my wife.

[PNGMK]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

[PNGMK]

I mean there are some parents who send their kids back to boarding school in primary school. They do this specifically to get them on track into a particular school or university system.

[PNGMK]

Sorry for the messages it's the only way I can reply easily offshore full stop the other option is to consider doing a university degree undergrad in Singapore. I know some kids in my wife's school who have used that as a method to then get into a specific school that they are interested in as either a graduate or as a undergrad with a first degree.

[NYY1]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

[PNGMK]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

[malcontent]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

It's not uncommon for people to look at other options after Sec 4 (sometimes where you stand is a bit clearer at that point in time). If one just wants to establish residency and is happy with a variety of in-state options, leaving for Year 11 (and Year 12) is probably OK. If one really wants to compete for certain things, I would suggest leaving earlier, probably after Sec 2. In which case, one can ask why not leave (or switch systems) after P6.

We are considering that too - probably after middle of Sec 2. However as O Levels can be used for admission to the schools we have in mind for NC we will probably have her complete her O levels.

I have heard UNC is notorious about preferring in-state students, so the best strategy for NC is probably 2 years community college and 2 years university. You can knock out most/all of the general electives (GE’s) which transfer 1-1, saving a bundle in tuition and still earning the same degree in the end (I did the same thing myself).

What’s interesting is that transfer students often have a higher admit rate than freshman (or… freshpeople, as the liberal mob now tells everyone we have to say), not at the ultra-selective schools in the top 10; but it is true as you get into the very selective schools in the top 30. They seem to have a vested interest in doing this in order to keep up appearances that they are very selective.

Community colleges in the same state as your target university will have experienced counselors that will advise you on exactly what is required GPA-wise to be admitted as a transfer student and also which courses will transfer. In some cases they even have guaranteed transfer programs, if you fulfill the criteria.

Not only will it be easier to get better grades at a community college versus a junior college here, but the target university will value the those courses and grades far more, and you get 1-1 transfer shaving a full 2 years off instead of 1 year (at best) with JC courses.

One trick my wife did not know, (which I did myself while at community college) you can simply drop courses if you are not confident about getting the needed grade. I dropped several, and probably wouldn’t have been accepted into my university if I hadn’t .

[malcontent]

To be honest this ^^ is why I have been having serious misgivings about putting my daughter through JC here.

One thing I wish I’d known… despite being in IP, she still “graduated” from secondary school and as such received an official graduation certificate for completing secondary school. That certificate was all we needed to get into community college in the US.

Had she done that and went to community college in the state of her target university, I believe she would have better prospects as an in-state student, and it would have been a whole lot less stress - she is now taking JC2 midterms, then prelim tests start several weeks later, then A-levels… a perfect storm of full-on testing insanity!

[malcontent]

It's so interesting that you have two kids so close in age with such different school experiences. I'm assuming the boy speaks with an American accent because of his school environment, does your daughter?

I will respond on this thread. Yes, they have very different accents, almost two ends of the extreme. This becomes a real problem when they visit their grandparents who understand my son perfectly but struggle to make out half of what my daughter is saying (I even have a hard time on occasion), which frustrates her to no end. I’m hoping that attending college in the US will help, but from what I’ve read, language is pretty much set by early teens, except those blessed with flexible tongues.

[malcontent]

I think a lot of it is false competition. What would be helpful is to impose a limit on the number of schools applicants can apply to, similar to the UCAS system in the UK where applicants are only permitted to apply to five schools, including one of either Oxford or Cambridge, not both. This reduces competition significantly and allows applicants a better chance at schools which truly have their interest.

Now, it's not uncommon to see students applying to 30 or more schools just to cast a wide net. There's no way in hell that they are equally interested in all 30, but if they are a qualified candidate, they may very well get into a large majority of the schools, taking away precious spots from kids who do not have as good of a turnout come decision time.

From what I can tell, these schools have a pretty good handle on the yield (enrollees versus admits), so for example when UC schools started admitting more in-state students… for every 1 in-state admitted they had to admit almost 2 less out-of state/international because the yield on in-state is almost double. This was what I concluded after downloading and analyzing their rich admissions datasets. You can imagine how a change like that impacts things for applicants like my daughter.

[malcontent]

The more common outcome seems to be US Resident abroad (Citizen or Green Card Holder) is treated as a domestic applicant (although this is not the case at all schools last time I checked a few). If you are talking UCLA (domestic out-of-state), there seems to be some conflicting information on the UCLA website and the UC System website.

UCLA (look at the FAQ):

https://admission.ucla.edu/apply/intern ... applicants


Will I be considered a domestic or international applicant if I am a U.S. Citizen but attended an international high school?
If you graduate from a high school outside of the U.S., then you are considered an international applicant. If you graduate from a high school located in the U.S., you are considered a domestic applicant. However, keep in mind this only applies to the application process and might not apply for in-state residency and tuition.

UC (look at the right side of the page):

https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... pplicants/

Who is an international applicant?
You’re an international applicant if you’re not a U.S. citizen or U.S. permanent resident.

Regardless, I'm with Lisa on this point; while the admit rate tends to be lower in the international bucket and the academic stats of kids admitted are sometimes higher, I don't think being in the domestic bucket necessarily makes things easier. Reason being that internationally educated students often compare more favourably with other international students (relative to one's strengths and weaknesses). Unfortunately, this is not a X% and Y% lucky draw (with X% > Y%). It is really about how one ranks vs. the competition.

I haven’t looked at all of the admission data, but at least for the UC schools my daughter is gunning for, the international bucket now has a lower acceptance rate than the out of state bucket.

As for what UC classifies as international, looking at the two statements, technically, they could both be true without conflicting with one another. It says you are an international student if you are not a US citizen… but that doesn’t preclude the possibility of a U.S. citizen being counted as an international student.

[Lisafuller]

Starting a new thread to continue the conversation on this topic. Some of the key challenges that locally educated students from here are facing:

1. Grade inflation: this is a real phenomenon happening in the world outside of the Singapore. What would count as a B or C grade here can get an A elsewhere in the world, but admissions officers treat A grades as equal.

2. Test optional: post-Covid, most admissions continue to be test optional - making it even easier for applicants with inflated grades to flood schools with applications, and they have.

3. Asian bias: many schools discriminate based on race in an attempt to level the playing field for races that perform poorly, and handicap races that perform better. This is especially unfair to Asian students who tend to have the highest test scores.

4. Gender bias: because women tend to be better students than men, there are more of them applying to universities. In order to level the playing field, fewer women are accepted than men.

5. Residency bias: in the past many public universities would accept large numbers of international and out of state students because state budgets were strained. That has now changed and public schools are now giving preference to in-state students.

6. English bias: some schools (like the University or Texas) do not recognize Singapore as being an English speaking country and students from here have to take TOEFL to be accepted. Often this requirement is waived for US citizen applicants, but it’s not always clear.

Interestingly, schools in Singapore that had large numbers of students applying to US universities have apparently gotten flack for it and have now greatly curtailed their support in terms of counseling and assistance to potential applicants from their schools. My daughter’s JC has practically no support whatsoever and anyone who is not pursuing local universities is seen as a square peg.

For applicants who are US citizens in Singapore, how they are treated (as an international or domestic student) also seems to be inconsistent. This can be a critical factor as many school impose quotas on the number of international students they accept. Most colleges proclaim that they evaluate each applicant in the context of their educational environment and the opportunities they had.

Some universities also appear to be biased against Singapore educated students because of the perception that they are not as well rounded and for the population of Singapore, tend to be overrepresented in terms of applicants per capita versus countries with larger populations.

Did I miss anything?

On school-based college counseling, are you sure there's much support provided to students applying locally? The process is pretty straightforward from what I understand. Could just be that her school doesn't have a very well equipped higher education office. My daughters JC had a very involved HEO, they sent email after email and dozens of slide decks. You could make in person appointments to consult with an admissions counselor, or have your essays reviewed online. Don't think my daughter ended up using any of this, but it was nice that it was there if she needed it.

[Lisafuller]

I agree it's a problem. This is why we are planning to move my daughter back at the end of year 10 or secondary four. It gives us more time to get her into a state-specific system and state specific school. I myself grew up overseas as you may know and I moved back at the end of year 11 to get into a specific system for Western Australia. I think the practice of waiting for the end of year 12 to move back is in some cases a mistake if you are chasing a particularly competitive college to get into.

Agreed. We had plans to send our daughter to a highly selective boarding school in the US at the end of grade 10, and she ended up getting in, but the plan was scrapped due to Covid. All their classes moved online so we couldn't really justify the switch.

[Lisafuller]

I mean there are some parents who send their kids back to boarding school in primary school. They do this specifically to get them on track into a particular school or university system.

My daughter wanted to go to Phillips Exeter Academy in Massachusetts fresh out of primary school, and in retrospect, she probably would have thrived there, but she had just gotten into RGS and we wanted to let her try it out. I don't know if we would do things differently given the chance, as she's made many great friends and done well for herself, but I do think she would've had a more well-rounded, balanced education there.