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Ukraine is f#cked!!!!

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 1:08 pm

Sergei82 wrote:This was happening on February 18. These are "peaceful" protesters??!?!??!!
What is happening is there are police officers being attacked by all kinds of weapons, including firearms, while they have only shields and batons. Why? Because EU and US is insisting on maximum restraint - that's why.

Sergei, what is clear even from what you posted is that this was (hopefully past) a full blown war. After first people have died you could not expect any peaceful behavior from either side.
No, nothing like this you would see in EU or US. The police would be equipped with tear gas, rubber bullets or other similar and non lethal weapons. Nobody would send some half armed troops against overwhelming number of raging protesters and I don't think this was because EU or US insisted on anything.

Tymoshenko already started on Maidan her election campaign and I don't think she is any better than Yanukovych. It's a big mess.

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Postby Sergei82 » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 3:07 pm

x9200 wrote:No, nothing like this you would see in EU or US. The police would be equipped with tear gas, rubber bullets or other similar and non lethal weapons. Nobody would send some half armed troops against overwhelming number of raging protesters and I don't think this was because EU or US insisted on anything.

I wonder, when a dozen or two of those police officers will be just killed violently and the crowd will keep pushing, will they still use just tear gas and rubber bullets no matter what? In fact, rubber bullets have side effect: they can traumatize people (even kill if you target some areas). That is why the police force were left on the streets with just batons and shields - after injuring and accidentally killing a few raging protesters with rubber bullets EU and US stepped in threatening and imposing sanctions. Don't such accidents happen in those countries? Police force had no choice ultimately: batons and shields against a shower of stones, Molotov cocktails, combat bullets and self-made grenades (from fireworks).

Timoshenko though disappointed me. All her speeches are completely one-sided. Even South-East Ukraine (70%) hoped she can at least reunite everybody, for what? I think, she is forgetting that all that happened not for her. She was just lucky being in jail at that time, otherwise she'd have lost her ratings and became hated by people just as much as the other 3 of our moronic opposition "leaders" and (ex-?)government.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 5:26 pm

I don't know but the real bullets kill and if you think about this kind of situations police just don't use them to disperse the crowd. It is almost unthinkable. If they do, something is really f*ed up in the country and hard to believe this is just a group of bandits who took over.
Sure enough there are always people who will use this kind of opportunity to burn some cars down and go riot just for the riot itself. It happened in recent past in the UK and the police used real bullets but it was very limited. What you can hear in the videos from Ukraine is a regular cannonade.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 5:44 pm

Sergei, I'm so sorry to see what's happening in your country. To my (admittedly somewhat ignorant) eyes it seems that the politicians there (as in many countries sadly) are all as bad as each other. What always infuriates me in these situations is the totally one-dimensional view adopted by the mainstream media - it's like the old John Wayne cowboy and Indian films I used to watch as a kid. There's always the 'goodies' (in this case Yulia Tymoshenko is now being portrayed as the saintly saviour of the country) and the 'baddies' (Yanukovych, who is obviously not a saint either). Almost totally black and white with very little discussion of the subtleties of the situation and the failings of those on 'our' side.

It reminds me of all the crap that went on before the Iraq war with the dodgy dossier, etc. IMO the media have a lot to answer for in their coverage of these events - they allow themselves to be used by the politico spin doctors to whip up a frenzy of public opinion that can be used to reinforce the 'desired' outcome.

Meanwhile, it's always the ordinary, powerless people who suffer the most in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, etc. It's just tragic and I hope that some kind of common sense will eventually prevail. I also hope that your family and friends back home are safe.
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Postby scarbowl » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 9:46 pm

The Russian ruling class must be quaking in their jackboots. One by one countries are throwing off their oppressors. Starting in 1990 with Hungary, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and others that said "freak you" to Mother Russia. Eventually, some of those further devolved particularly Yugoslavia. Twenty years later it was Libya, Iraq, and Syria whose ruthless leaders had been heavily sponsored by Russia which also revolted. (Egypt is another matter, of course). Now we have Ukraine whose people are sick and tired of the corruption and divisive politics of Russia. You can also look to Moldova which was divided by the Russians between the Republic of Moldova and Transnistria. Read about divisive Russian activity in the Baltics. Or the illegal invasion of Georgia and occupation of South Ossetia. Or do some reading about the cesspool called Kaliningrad whose residents remain subjugated. Russia supports Beloruss with billions each year as another like-minded Stalinist country. It goes on and one.

The violence in Ukraine is a tragedy. But as a PP said, the use of armed troops by the government to put down protestors is a tactics used by pretty much all Russia-allied countries. (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, et al.)

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Postby Sergei82 » Sun, 23 Feb 2014 10:21 pm

scarbowl wrote:Now we have Ukraine whose people are sick and tired of the corruption and divisive politics of Russia.

You're right only about the 1st part. And we didn't have dictatorship as such, moreover - ruthless. And is Syrians had a ruthless dictator, Assad would've been toppled long ago. Your vision is blurred by what you're shown by EU and US politicized media (Russian media is even more politicized, but that doesn't excuse EU's politics)

scarbowl wrote:The violence in Ukraine is a tragedy. But as a PP said, the use of armed troops by the government to put down protestors is a tactics used by pretty much all Russia-allied countries. (Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, et al.)

Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and company started with shooting to kill, so the uprising was squashed in the beginning. Our soldiers gave their lives only because our government tried to lick 3 asses at the same time (Russia, EU and US), while all those ass-owners are in huge disagreement with each other.

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Postby Sergei82 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 9:44 am

Who said Ukraine is poor? Who said MPs in Singapore have the highest paychecks in the world???

Here is just one of our (former) president's (this ugly guy fled!) summer houses:
http://obozrevatel.com/politics/30842-mezhigore-reportazh-iz-broshennogo-raya/photo-1.htm

Here is how our former Prosecutor General of Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Pshonka) lived:

http://obozrevatel.com/photo/28539-obnarodovannyi-sokrovischa-pshonki-vyiradennyie-evangelie-moschi-svyatyih-v-kabinete-yajtsa-faberzhe.htm

And they say why I'm not working in my home country!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: [/url]

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Postby Barnsley » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:42 am

How do you think this is going to play out Sergei?

Will Ukraine split?

Will Russia send in the troops?
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Postby Sergei82 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:52 am

Barnsley wrote:How do you think this is going to play out Sergei?

Will Ukraine split?

Will Russia send in the troops?

None of it. We will have another sh*tty government until another uprising happens.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 4:39 pm

All what has happened during last 24h, does it has any legal ground? I mean removal of Yanukovych from his office and nationalization of his property?

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Postby Sergei82 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 4:43 pm

No. It does not have. But nobody will help him. A half of Ukraine hates him, another half does not give a damn about him anymore because he fled at a very critical moment.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 5:30 pm

It's pretty bad for a start over and makes more likely the scenario you mentioned to Barnsley. Would be a different thing if the opposition did not agree a moment earlier to something else but after they did, happy or not, they should have respected what they agreed on. IMHO.

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Postby Sergei82 » Mon, 24 Feb 2014 7:31 pm

Long one (41 min) battle in Kiev city square:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSvj8F_Br4M

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Postby BedokAmerican » Tue, 25 Feb 2014 3:33 pm

I saw something about this on CNN today.

Do you have any idea where Yanukovych might be right now?

Apparently an arrest warrant has been issued but he fled Kiev by helicopter. He was reportedly seen in Sevastopol, although that hasn't been verified, according to news reports.

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Postby Sergei82 » Tue, 25 Feb 2014 5:37 pm

Nobody knows where is he and no institution wants to take responsibility to search for him, including police and SBU. Nobody cares about him, so as I. He is nothing to everybody from now on since he fled (despite high hopes we had for him).


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