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Ukraine is f#cked!!!!

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 07 Mar 2014 9:35 pm

Wd40 wrote:Yes you should be loyal to your country. But what if another country has acquired your country? Shouldn't you then logically become loyal to your new country? The borders of countries have always been changing historically. If you look at Africa, America and Australia, I find it so funny. Most of the borders there are straight lines. They were made my men. So who is to decide that whatever the current country borders are the final and no more changes.

The western powers before the world war looted a lot of countries and became very powerful and acquired nuclear weapons and then decided no countries should then acquire nuclear weapons and no country should have interests in growing their sphere.Russia has every right to protect its interests and not let EU expand until the borders of Russia and then completely isolate Russia.


The country is not the territory but the people. My country ceased to exist for 250 years and the identity survived and was always very strong. At that time there was more strong ethnic groups than today.

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:01 pm

Wd40 wrote:SU disintegrated because it became economically weak because of Communism and closed economy.

SU and the satellite countries were always week economically. It did make them to disintegrate.

At the moment, America and EU are economically weak and do not have the appetite for another war, which is why Russia made the Crimea adventure.

War is not always bad for economy. I don't really think it was a factor. It is more about some personal ambitions to recreate the empire.


If China were to now go all out and support Russia, you can assume another world war and the world that we know now wont exist. I hope China doesn't do that.

I think China is pretty much concerned about the possible secession of Crimea. They have some problems of this type on their own.

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Postby ecureilx » Fri, 07 Mar 2014 10:30 pm

Wd40 wrote:Yes you should be loyal to your country. But what if another country has acquired your country? Shouldn't you then logically become loyal to your new country?


seriously ??????????

your argument rhymes with a few friends I know who insist India should annex neighbors, starting with the one in south ... just because India can do it ... not logically thinking of the repercussions or if the 'new' citizens will integrate or not ...

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Postby zzm9980 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:29 am

ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Yes you should be loyal to your country. But what if another country has acquired your country? Shouldn't you then logically become loyal to your new country?


seriously ??????????

your argument rhymes with a few friends I know who insist India should annex neighbors, starting with the one in south ... just because India can do it ... not logically thinking of the repercussions or if the 'new' citizens will integrate or not ...


I wonder what he'd say if Pakistan annexed his beloved Bangalore :D

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Postby ecureilx » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 12:43 am

zzm9980 wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Yes you should be loyal to your country. But what if another country has acquired your country? Shouldn't you then logically become loyal to your new country?


seriously ??????????

your argument rhymes with a few friends I know who insist India should annex neighbors, starting with the one in south ... just because India can do it ... not logically thinking of the repercussions or if the 'new' citizens will integrate or not ...


I wonder what he'd say if Pakistan annexed his beloved Bangalore :D


speechless I am

:wink: :wink:

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Postby zzm9980 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 1:43 am

ecureilx wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Yes you should be loyal to your country. But what if another country has acquired your country? Shouldn't you then logically become loyal to your new country?


seriously ??????????

your argument rhymes with a few friends I know who insist India should annex neighbors, starting with the one in south ... just because India can do it ... not logically thinking of the repercussions or if the 'new' citizens will integrate or not ...


I wonder what he'd say if Pakistan annexed his beloved Bangalore :D


speechless I am

:wink: :wink:


So was wd40. So much that he posted a reply, and erased it. Something about "What would I do? I'd either stay or emigrate."

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Postby ecureilx » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 9:02 am

zzm9980 wrote:
ecureilx wrote:
I wonder what he'd say if Pakistan annexed his beloved Bangalore :D


speechless I am

:wink: :wink:


So was wd40. So much that he posted a reply, and erased it. Something about "What would I do? I'd either stay or emigrate."[/quote]

in reality parts of India have been carved up by Pakistan and China ... and its forgotten ...

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 9:23 am

Wd40 wrote:From X9200's link:

"Belarus, Russia, and Ukraine are really one slavic people," said the Colonel. "The divisions are only formalities. Whoever gave the order for this operation set brother against brother. It's a crazy situation."


The ideal thing should have been that USSR should have remained one country and shouldnt have disintegrated. They should have adopted capitalism(Like China has done) and then they could have become a potent force like the EU and rivaled America like they used to do in the cold war days.

Are you sure you know what you're raving about (asks the one who was born in USSR).
If I were you, I wouldn't even judge civil war in Syria and blame any of the sides.

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 9:26 am

x9200 wrote:At the moment, America and EU are economically weak and do not have the appetite for another war, which is why Russia made the Crimea adventure.

War is not always bad for economy. I don't really think it was a factor. It is more about some personal ambitions to recreate the empire.


War can be very stimulating for the economy if:
1) it is not on your land,
2) it doesn't last too long (US's screw-up with Iraq and Afghanistan)

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 9:44 am

So while Ukrainian govt is trying desperately to seek help. Russians don't just wait (keep in mind that self-proclaimed prime minister of Crimea insists they are not Russians, they're Crimean self-defense - people organized and fight for their "freedom"... and accidentally those people found ships, tanks, helicopters, grenade launchers, mines etc)

What's happened in last 2 days:
1) All Ukrainian military installations are blocked, Russians started digging trenches around them since yesterday,
2) Russians sunk 2 of their own ship in Sevastopol bay to prevent Ukrainian vessels to move out to the sea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh5iXld6a1Q&feature=player_embedded),
3) The main gas pipe was mined. If there is an explosion, vast area will be wiped out and most of Crimea will be without any gas (only hope if Russians "help" across the strait - Putin likes arranging a bloodbath and then "helping" to resolve it - the way it happened in Kiev)
4) Ukrainian television was switched off in Crimea. Russian channels remain online, new Crimean "people" television channel announced.
5) Self-proclaimed government of Crimea already announced it is joining Russian Federation (thus - 6, 7, 8), the "referendum" is shifted for March 16 (now not to vote, but to "confirm people's choice" to join Russia)
All Ukrainian property in Crimea
6) Crimean "authorities" announced preparations to enter ruble zone
7) All Ukrainian property in Crimea including factories and oil company are said to be "nationalized" by people of Crimea
8) Ukrainian military still trapped in their installations and refusing to surrender were told that once Putin nods his head in Crimea "joins" Russia, they will be treated as invaders (!!!) and force will be applied to them.

Things are unwinding with horrifying speed. The only thing our stupid government came up with so far is to increase salaries for military by 2.5 times.

It doesn't matter which hands Crimea will get into, this economically poor and degraded peninsula which highly depended on tourists coming during summer will have a terrible year financially. Even though new "authorities" of Crimea say not to worry about tourist season, who will go for vacation in Crimea this year? Unless Russian tourists are forced in droves over there...

Yesterday Russian speakers in SG had the most awkward BBQ ever. We needed to drink vodka 1st. Fortunately, today is International Women's day, so that discussion subject saved us.

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 10:41 am

One of our politician just mentioned that he has feeling that US and UK are simply giving Ukraine away and if Budapest memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) will be violated, over 20 countries in the world may start using it as a precedent to start creating nuclear weapons and over 100 territories in the world will start separating with referendums. I feel there is something rational in his thoughts. :)

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Postby Wd40 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 10:50 am

Sergei82 wrote:One of our politician just mentioned that he has feeling that US and UK are simply giving Ukraine away and if Budapest memorandum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances) will be violated, over 20 countries in the world may start using it as a precedent to start creating nuclear weapons and over 100 territories in the world will start separating with referendums. I feel there is something rational in his thoughts. :)


So once Putin tastes success with Crimea, he isnt going to stop there. He will try more adventures and then the west will eventually be dragged into a war, even if they cant afford it. The world economy is going to be screwed.

Its funny when there were talks about US strike on Syria, the world markets had crashed on that day. Whats happening currently has a potentially to really blow up, yet markets are ignoring it.

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:07 am

Putin is not an idiot. Ukraine would have not be invaded if it was a NATO member.

I think nobody mentioned yet a good example of Canada who kicked out all the Russian military personnel taking part in some joint exercise.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/russian- ... -1.1717172

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 11:59 am

x9200 wrote:Putin is not an idiot. Ukraine would have not be invaded if it was a NATO member.

It is clear that Putin planned this years ahead. Ukraine tried joining NATO before Yanukovich was a president - Moscow increased prices for gas five-fold, then Yanukovich came to power in economically struck Ukraine to "save it".

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Postby Sergei82 » Sat, 08 Mar 2014 2:18 pm

US Navy destroyer passes through Straits, arrives in Black Sea
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-341496-us-navy-destroyer-passes-through-straits-arrives-in-black-sea.html
The US has said that the fact that the USS Truxtun was going to the Black Sea is not linked to the crisis in Ukraine.

And Putin has said there are no Russian soldiers blocking Crimean peninsula. What a wonderful peaceful times we are living in!


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