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Male Baby born in Canada

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Godfather_Justin
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Male Baby born in Canada

Postby Godfather_Justin » Thu, 02 Jan 2014 6:55 pm

Hi Gurus,

I'd like ask if anyone of you or your relative or friends had the similar situation like mine:

- Im a Singapore citizen now (I converted from China citizenship to SC in year 2013)
- My wife is a China citizen + Canada PR + Singapore LTVP+
- Our baby BOY will be born in Canada in a few months time (My wife is already in Canada now)
- Our baby boy will become a Canadian citizen once he is born.


May i know:

- If my boy can have dual citizenship (Canada+Singapore) once he is born? (Assume i submit Singapore citizenship for him within 12 months)

The reason for applying SC for him is for the convenience of living in SG, we plan to live and work in SG. Also about the education fees (childcare fee and primary sch fee). Thus we hope my boy can be a SC and enjoy all the benefits as a normal Singaporean kid. Of course we do NOT mind our boy to do National Service in the future.

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Postby Manoj.K » Fri, 03 Jan 2014 6:47 am

Might I dare ask why you decided to get your child delivered in Canada? :o

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Postby Godfather_Justin » Fri, 03 Jan 2014 11:02 am

Because her family is there to take care of her. im alone here in SG.

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Postby Manoj.K » Fri, 03 Jan 2014 1:03 pm

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporea ... nality_Law

Says your child will have to give up Canadian Citizenship before he turns 22.

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Postby AndrewV » Mon, 06 Jan 2014 3:58 pm

But what does this mean (in the wikipedia article:

"The Constitution of Singapore is silent on a Singapore citizen who acquired citizenship by birth and is a foreign citizen by descent. So long as such a person refrains from exercising his rights of the foreign citizenship, the Government has no grounds to deprive him of his Singapore citizenship and he may hold on to dual citizenship"

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Postby PNGMK » Mon, 06 Jan 2014 5:29 pm

AndrewV wrote:But what does this mean (in the wikipedia article:

"The Constitution of Singapore is silent on a Singapore citizen who acquired citizenship by birth and is a foreign citizen by descent. So long as such a person refrains from exercising his rights of the foreign citizenship, the Government has no grounds to deprive him of his Singapore citizenship and he may hold on to dual citizenship"


It means if he hides his foreign citizenship he might get away with it....

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Postby niceit198 » Tue, 07 Jan 2014 4:51 pm

your son after 12age are not allowed to renounce citizenship untill he complete the NS, your son can hold dual citizen but subjet to approve by ica , once your son reach 21 must decide to renounce one of the citizenship before turn age 22

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Postby AndrewV » Fri, 10 Jan 2014 9:58 am

niceit198 wrote:your son after 12age are not allowed to renounce citizenship untill he complete the NS, your son can hold dual citizen but subjet to approve by ica , once your son reach 21 must decide to renounce one of the citizenship before turn age 22

yes this is true
If your son doesn't "make it" in the singapore education system, it will be good to do NS earlier then go back to canada for uni and then decide which citizenship you want to renounce i feel

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Postby Godfather_Justin » Fri, 10 Jan 2014 2:30 pm

its too early to decide which citizenship he should take when he is not even born yet. Thank you all for the clarification and suggestion. I will need to discuss this matter with my families again. At least he can have the dual citizenship until the age of 12. Again thank you all !

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 10 Jan 2014 3:03 pm

Godfather_Justin wrote:its too early to decide which citizenship he should take when he is not even born yet. Thank you all for the clarification and suggestion. I will need to discuss this matter with my families again. At least he can have the dual citizenship until the age of 12. Again thank you all !


If he hold dual citizenship at 12 he'll still have dual citizenship until within 12 months of obtaining his 21st birthday. He's not allow to renounce before the age of 21. What people are confusing is the NS issue. If you announce his intentions of renouncing at the age of 21 to mindef at the age of 13 , then he can get a exit permit and a deferment from NS until he turns 21. This may be granted if family has already immigrated. However, if he doesn't renounce at the age of 21 then he will be required to immediately enter NS. If he doesn't and is out of the country, then he will be listed as a deserter/defaulter and will not be allowed to return to Singapore, or, if he does he will be picked up, fined, incarcerated and upon his release, still be required to do NS unless he's over the age for NS. Should that happen the fine & jail term will be adjusted accordingly. Additionally, the odds of being given a deferment will be dependent, in a lot of cases, on the status of the parents. If they have both given up their citizenship and acquired foreign citizenship, it's usually no problem, however, if one is still holding on to their citizenship then it will be seen as just a ruse to avoid NS and the deferment request will be refused. They've seen it all before.

Have a good read/research in the Strictly Speaking forum for NS issues. It's been covered in great depth over the years and it hasn't changed except when Singapore went to the biometric passports, at that point the age was changed from 11 to 13 years of age. The process is tricky and has a lot of stumbling blocks and pitfalls, deliberately so. It's important to know before as it's rare to impossible to change once the damage has been done.

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Postby Godfather_Justin » Fri, 10 Jan 2014 5:28 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Godfather_Justin wrote:its too early to decide which citizenship he should take when he is not even born yet. Thank you all for the clarification and suggestion. I will need to discuss this matter with my families again. At least he can have the dual citizenship until the age of 12. Again thank you all !


If he hold dual citizenship at 12 he'll still have dual citizenship until within 12 months of obtaining his 21st birthday. He's not allow to renounce before the age of 21. What people are confusing is the NS issue. If you announce his intentions of renouncing at the age of 21 to mindef at the age of 13 , then he can get a exit permit and a deferment from NS until he turns 21. This may be granted if family has already immigrated. However, if he doesn't renounce at the age of 21 then he will be required to immediately enter NS. If he doesn't and is out of the country, then he will be listed as a deserter/defaulter and will not be allowed to return to Singapore, or, if he does he will be picked up, fined, incarcerated and upon his release, still be required to do NS unless he's over the age for NS. Should that happen the fine & jail term will be adjusted accordingly. Additionally, the odds of being given a deferment will be dependent, in a lot of cases, on the status of the parents. If they have both given up their citizenship and acquired foreign citizenship, it's usually no problem, however, if one is still holding on to their citizenship then it will be seen as just a ruse to avoid NS and the deferment request will be refused. They've seen it all before.

Have a good read/research in the Strictly Speaking forum for NS issues. It's been covered in great depth over the years and it hasn't changed except when Singapore went to the biometric passports, at that point the age was changed from 11 to 13 years of age. The process is tricky and has a lot of stumbling blocks and pitfalls, deliberately so. It's important to know before as it's rare to impossible to change once the damage has been done.


can i understand this way:

1. If we want our son to go NS, we should just leave as it is (Dual citizenship until 21 yrs old, and of course serve NS at the age of 18).

2. If we do NOT want our son to serve NS, we must inform to Mindef before the age of 13 that he is not going to serve NS. At this time Mindef will likely approve our request, so that he does not need to serve NS. Is my understanding correct ?

3. If we inform/submit to Mindef that our son is NOT going to serve NS after the age of 13, we MUST provide strong reasoning/evidence to show why we do not want him to do NS. this will not be as easy as point number 1, it will be subjected to approval. Is my understanding?

4. So Basically, if we do NOT want him to go for NS, inform/submit to Mindef no later than the age of 13. Is this correct ?

5. So my question is that, if we inform Mindef before the age of 13 that he is not going to serve NS, will my son still retain his dual citizenship till the age of 21?

Many thanks.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 10 Jan 2014 5:46 pm

Godfather_Justin wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Godfather_Justin wrote:its too early to decide which citizenship he should take when he is not even born yet. Thank you all for the clarification and suggestion. I will need to discuss this matter with my families again. At least he can have the dual citizenship until the age of 12. Again thank you all !


If he hold dual citizenship at 12 he'll still have dual citizenship until within 12 months of obtaining his 21st birthday. He's not allow to renounce before the age of 21. What people are confusing is the NS issue. If you announce his intentions of renouncing at the age of 21 to mindef at the age of 13 , then he can get a exit permit and a deferment from NS until he turns 21. This may be granted if family has already immigrated. However, if he doesn't renounce at the age of 21 then he will be required to immediately enter NS. If he doesn't and is out of the country, then he will be listed as a deserter/defaulter and will not be allowed to return to Singapore, or, if he does he will be picked up, fined, incarcerated and upon his release, still be required to do NS unless he's over the age for NS. Should that happen the fine & jail term will be adjusted accordingly. Additionally, the odds of being given a deferment will be dependent, in a lot of cases, on the status of the parents. If they have both given up their citizenship and acquired foreign citizenship, it's usually no problem, however, if one is still holding on to their citizenship then it will be seen as just a ruse to avoid NS and the deferment request will be refused. They've seen it all before.

Have a good read/research in the Strictly Speaking forum for NS issues. It's been covered in great depth over the years and it hasn't changed except when Singapore went to the biometric passports, at that point the age was changed from 11 to 13 years of age. The process is tricky and has a lot of stumbling blocks and pitfalls, deliberately so. It's important to know before as it's rare to impossible to change once the damage has been done.


can i understand this way:

1. If we want our son to go NS, we should just leave as it is (Dual citizenship until 21 yrs old, and of course serve NS at the age of 18).

Correct.

2. If we do NOT want our son to serve NS, we must inform to Mindef before the age of 13 that he is not going to serve NS. At this time Mindef will likely approve our request, so that he does not need to serve NS. Is my understanding correct ?

Partially. You will ideally already immigrated to your spouse's country as otherwise, you will have a hard time proving it not a ruse. Additionally, you will have given up your own citizenship here and taken up your husband's citizenship (this may be circumvented but it could well be a sticking point).

3. If we inform/submit to Mindef that our son is NOT going to serve NS after the age of 13, we MUST provide strong reasoning/evidence to show why we do not want him to do NS. this will not be as easy as point number 1, it will be subjected to approval. Is my understanding?

The ONLY valid reason for not doing NS is that you are immigrating to another country. If you are here, it will be difficult to prove you are going to immigrate. Conscientious Objectors just don't get it here. There is no such thing.

If the child is given citizenship then NS is an obligation of citizenship. That is also the reasoning for allowing dual citizenship as they realize that often the family will follow the father (assuming the father is the foreigner - not always the case). If they require the renunciation within 12 months of the 21st birthday, they need to ensure that the child is not made stateless. So, No dual citizenship past the age of 22. They will not accept renunciation unless NS is done OR a deferment was granted.


4. So Basically, if we do NOT want him to go for NS, inform/submit to Mindef no later than the age of 13. Is this correct ?

Shortly before/after the age of 13. I would do it a couple of months before the age of 13. Also, you would be wise not to get him an NRIC or a Singapore passport or have a Singapore passport with a validity date later than his 13th birthday. In both cases, it will make the deferment harder. Also, you might want to get permission from the MOE to send your son to the International School instead of a local school - more proof of intent. He can travel on his other passport and you can have "right of entry" stamped in the foreign passport. This allow travel and entry/exit from Singapore without Visa/hassle.

5. So my question is that, if we inform Mindef before the age of 13 that he is not going to serve NS, will my son still retain his dual citizenship till the age of 21?

Yes. He is NOT allowed to renounce until he has finished NS OR gotten a deferment AND reached the age of 21.

Many thanks.

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Postby AndrewV » Mon, 13 Jan 2014 1:53 pm

anyway I don't think the OP is trying to skip NS right? he has stated very clearly that he is ok with his son serving NS.

OP, after 22, which citizenship will you prefer your son to have? as long as you were born canadian the canadian government will allow you to resume your citizenship in a future date (after 1 year of being a PR), the way things are going with more economic activity moving to asia you may want to think strongly about maintaining your son's singaporean citizenship until he is older and wants to do a slightly slower paced easier job in canada

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Postby Godfather_Justin » Mon, 13 Jan 2014 2:21 pm

First of all, really appreciate sundaymorningstaple's detailed replies. Thank you very much for the info.

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Postby Godfather_Justin » Mon, 13 Jan 2014 2:32 pm

AndrewV wrote:anyway I don't think the OP is trying to skip NS right? he has stated very clearly that he is ok with his son serving NS.

OP, after 22, which citizenship will you prefer your son to have? as long as you were born canadian the canadian government will allow you to resume your citizenship in a future date (after 1 year of being a PR), the way things are going with more economic activity moving to asia you may want to think strongly about maintaining your son's singaporean citizenship until he is older and wants to do a slightly slower paced easier job in canada


Hi AndrewV,

Just like i mentioned in the first post, we have no issue sending my son for NS in Singapore. We have never thought of skipping NS at all.

We will definitely take your suggestion into consideration. Personally i have the similar thinking as you: make as much as you can in Asia when still young, retire and enjoy your life in Canada... But sometimes things/plans are easy to say, but hard to do... well, we will leave it to him to decide....


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