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"REvolution" in Ukraine :D

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 9:31 am

JR8 wrote:I think this is not too dissimilar to what you see in other countries that get politically 'liberated' from long-term one-party rule.

I think it is. I may be wrong but as much as I can comprehend the situation, this is a democratically elected parliament/government but it is one big mess probably arising from the lack of political maturity and acceptable standards.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 11:21 am

In any case current Ukrainian govt at least keeps the economy afloat somehow after that "opposition" almost destroyed it to ashes during previous president term. It is mostly Western Ukrainian regions "rioting" - those regions are donated, very economically poor and with a lot of unemployment (and all those jobless are going out to "overthrow" the current govt). East of Ukraine where I'm comong from is by far better off and calm. The problem is: Eastern regions are much more distance from the capital.

And about Russia: we can't keep status quo. For Putin it is: either you are with us or you are against us. USSR legacy thinking. :)

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:32 pm

Sergei82 wrote:In any case current Ukrainian govt at least keeps the economy afloat somehow after that "opposition" almost destroyed it to ashes during previous president term. It is mostly Western Ukrainian regions "rioting" - those regions are donated, very economically poor and with a lot of unemployment (and all those jobless are going out to "overthrow" the current govt). East of Ukraine where I'm comong from is by far better off and calm. The problem is: Eastern regions are much more distance from the capital.

And about Russia: we can't keep status quo. For Putin it is: either you are with us or you are against us. USSR legacy thinking. :)


Funny, what you said matches this almost perfectly:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economis ... xplains-11

The Economist explains
Why does Ukraine have so many revolutions?

(snip)

For some outsiders (especially in Russia), the problem is Ukraine itself. It was a constituent republic of the Soviet Union (suffering terribly in famine, purges and war), coming into being as an independent nation only in 1991; before then it had existed as a country of sorts only for a brief spell after the Russian Revolution. The lands that now constitute Ukraine had previously been carved up between Russia, Poland, the Austro-Hungary empire, the Duchy of Lithuania and the Crimean Khanate. This splintered history, the theory goes, means that Ukraine is an artificial creation rather than a natural, coherent state. And indeed there are big cultural and political divisions among its people, in particular between the Ukrainian-speaking west and the mostly Russian-speaking south and east (also the country’s most heavily industrialised regions). Fierce rows occasionally erupt about the official status and usage of the two languages. Political allegiances seem to be contiguous with this division: at the presidential election of 2010, the south and east mostly voted for President Viktor Yanukovych, while the west (and Kiev, the capital), plumped for Yulia Tymoshenko, who was subsequently imprisoned on what many people see as bogus charges. Even today, despite his manifold failings, such as locking up his opponents and rampant cronyism, Mr Yanukovych retains considerable support in his industrial heartland.

(/snip)


Judging by you coming from the east, I take it your opinion of the others is slightly 'biased' :)

Maybe Ukraine is one of those countries which would be better off split up into its constituent parts (like Iraq) and potentially annexed by neighbors.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:56 pm

For me - let the West split! They live at East's expense anyway. A typical image of Ukrainian West: a small village - nowhere, nothing is there, all people are dead drunk... you imagine! :)

Btw, I'm reading the news now. Putin is promising A LOT to Ukraine if it joins Customs Union with Russia: much cheaper gas, freedom in trading with Russia, Russian investments in Ukraine etc etc etc (stressing that Customs Union was NOT discussed during Ukrainian president's last visit in Russia). Very enticing - everything but letting Ukraine sign any treaty with EU (same as with NATO years back). Of course, many people think these moves from Putin is abuse, but it doesn't mean we should stop working and go do a revolution - we're economically stagnating long enough already.

Also, during last Orange Revolution, it is those jobless hobos from the West who were especially active. East and South mostly didn't give any crap and Central region were 50/50% (only those who were bored came out) - people were busy working and living as homo sapiens, not as chimpanzees on barricades.

And yes, Orange revolution had success (not as legitimate as outsider may think, btw - everybody just got tired and wanted at least some stability), former opposition did not know what to do with the economy. They had no team, they had no experience. Absolutely not suitable people were assigned on ministerial posts. Economy plunged down with a speed of thunder. The newly elected president got scared soooo much that after 6 months of this "ruling" he had to sack all the government and bring back the old team (with current president as a prime minister that time) to revive at least something. What a circus and disgrace! Just half a year to screw up everything that was built in more than a decade after USSR collapsed! :)

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:58 pm

Btw, to clarify the picture: GDP per capita in the East of Ukraine is half of that in Germany, GDP per capita in the West of Ukraine is half of that in Cuba.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 1:20 pm

Yeah, I am not surprised at all that the group making this big noise may not be representative for the whole nation. Somebody mentioned like 10% supports them.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 1:25 pm

And 9% out of those 10% are just joining the fun, similar to rioters in Little India.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 1:41 pm

Sergei82 wrote:Btw, to clarify the picture: GDP per capita in the East of Ukraine is half of that in Germany, GDP per capita in the West of Ukraine is half of that in Cuba.



Hahaha... cruelly ironic.

It's sad, Ukraine as an industrial powerhouse should have been set free to soar. But the bullshit-politics has kept it chained to the ground.

'Oh look, you're no better off after Independence!! [see see!]
Yeah, that's because you're going all out to completely butt-***k us to try and make a point!'

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 7:00 pm

Yeah, the conclusion of that article was basically that it's neither side's policies at fault for Ukraine, but the massive corruption by both sides.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 7:13 pm

I thought Russia itself is an emerging economy. It is part of BRICs isn't it? Why does Ukraine want to take help from Russia? A failure from the Cold war era. Many countries, including India, that supported USSR during the cold war era did much better when they severed ties with them and supported America instead after the end of cold war.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 7:26 pm

Russia is a big country with vast natural resources. This probably says it all.
IMO it's hard to compare India to Ukraine in the context of sociopolitical relations with Russia.

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Postby Sergei82 » Thu, 19 Dec 2013 1:28 pm

Putin came and screwed up everything big time! That "revolution" was a spontaneous event, people already started to dissipate a bit (New Year is coming - we celebrate New Year as Xmas and we don't celebrate Catholic Xmas). After what Putin did, the "revolution" will become chronic: those who feel insulted won't give up. So much for the economic aid from Russia which will be suppressed by constant state of defiance in Ukraine. Who gets benefit out of it, not clear yet, but I'm sure new forms of taxes are coming... Most probably, when Ukraine's economy collapses to ashes, Russia will absord Ukraine as another federation (Belarus is already close to that).

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Postby jocox » Tue, 24 Dec 2013 5:40 am

I think soon maidan disperse and did not really change.

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Postby Sergei82 » Tue, 24 Dec 2013 8:21 am

our pain and shame...


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