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"REvolution" in Ukraine :D

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"REvolution" in Ukraine :D

Postby Sergei82 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013 5:00 pm

Sitting here with a bucket for vomit just in case and reading news from my country... what a shame!

Ladies and gentlemen, I know most of you already saw something on the news about Ukraine recently. What are your thoughts about it? Is it the rightful will of people to create a democratic nation? Not saying anything intentionally: curious to know how it looks like for people who just see Ukraine in the news every so often.

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Re: "REvolution" in Ukraine :D

Postby Barnsley » Thu, 12 Dec 2013 5:23 pm

Sergei82 wrote:Sitting here with a bucket for vomit just in case and reading news from my country... what a shame!

Ladies and gentlemen, I know most of you already saw something on the news about Ukraine recently. What are your thoughts about it? Is it the rightful will of people to create a democratic nation? Not saying anything intentionally: curious to know how it looks like for people who just see Ukraine in the news every so often.


Its seems the Ukraine is between a rock and a hard place .....

EU on one side and Russia on the other ....... whoever Ukraine signs up with they will probably regret it in the future, at least the man in the street will, politicians will do very nicely thank you as always.

:o
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Postby Wd40 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013 6:06 pm

I dont really follow political news much. But my thoughts when I saw what is happening in Ukraine, with what the police did to disperse the crowd and US is warning that they will put sanctions, is I am wondering how come Ukraine joined the likes of Egypt, Syria and Libya.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 12 Dec 2013 7:54 pm

Wd40 wrote:I dont really follow political news much. But my thoughts when I saw what is happening in Ukraine, with what the police did to disperse the crowd and US is warning that they will put sanctions, is I am wondering how come Ukraine joined the likes of Egypt, Syria and Libya.


All of them were undemocratic, and/or ruled by dictators, and/or family dynasties that passed power from father to son.

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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 9:48 am

And Ukraine is ruled by a bunch of retards. And a bunch of retards #2 is trying to seize the power now (with no strategy on how to do it and no clue what to do with the country if they win).

EU+US is no better than Russia for us now. It is not Ukraine who needs to reconcile with both EU+US and Russia, it is EU+US who should come in terms with Russia, Ukraine has nothing to do with all that shit.

And all that "revolution" is just a circus, unlike Syria and Egypt where people were trying to overthrow dictators. Soon people will dissipate and go celebrating New Year. Unfortunately, economy is steadily going down. To extent even Thailand is already ahead of Ukraine... but no: lets halt the economy again (every year now!) and use all available money in election campaign.

Where the hell do they take those money for (re-)elections every year? Not sure, but what I'm sure is:
1) Recently a new tax was introduced for those Ukrainians working abroad - they must pay up difference between taxes in Ukraine and country of residence. In city as expensive as Singapore paying Ukrainian tax will mean nothing to eat for many. That is very new, none of countries of former USSR is doing that. Since nobody paid that before, we will have difficulties visiting our own country now: we need to show some proof that the taxes were paid.
2) A new tax was introduced for money received from abroad by relatives of expats and work migrants (depending on amount can be over 20%). What are they trying en-/discourage?
3) A new tax was introduced (10% and above) on all currency conversions. And that is on top of previous tax.

So I have to give away a half of my income to the contry which is doing absolutely nothing for me, I have no property there, I'm not going to retire there. Those money will not be received by my parents and relatives, they will be spent on elections (much of work for which is outsourced to experts from other countries where my money will drift to)

Judge me if I'm not a patriot! :)

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Postby Barnsley » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:23 am

Sergei82 wrote:And Ukraine is ruled by a bunch of retards. And a bunch of retards #2 is trying to seize the power now (with no strategy on how to do it and no clue what to do with the country if they win).

EU+US is no better than Russia for us now. It is not Ukraine who needs to reconcile with both EU+US and Russia, it is EU+US who should come in terms with Russia, Ukraine has nothing to do with all that shit.

And all that "revolution" is just a circus, unlike Syria and Egypt where people were trying to overthrow dictators. Soon people will dissipate and go celebrating New Year. Unfortunately, economy is steadily going down. To extent even Thailand is already ahead of Ukraine... but no: lets halt the economy again (every year now!) and use all available money in election campaign.

Where the hell do they take those money for (re-)elections every year? Not sure, but what I'm sure is:
1) Recently a new tax was introduced for those Ukrainians working abroad - they must pay up difference between taxes in Ukraine and country of residence. In city as expensive as Singapore paying Ukrainian tax will mean nothing to eat for many. That is very new, none of countries of former USSR is doing that. Since nobody paid that before, we will have difficulties visiting our own country now: we need to show some proof that the taxes were paid.
2) A new tax was introduced for money received from abroad by relatives of expats and work migrants (depending on amount can be over 20%). What are they trying en-/discourage?
3) A new tax was introduced (10% and above) on all currency conversions. And that is on top of previous tax.

So I have to give away a half of my income to the contry which is doing absolutely nothing for me, I have no property there, I'm not going to retire there. Those money will not be received by my parents and relatives, they will be spent on elections (much of work for which is outsourced to experts from other countries where my money will drift to)

Judge me if I'm not a patriot! :)


That sounds pretty grim Dude!!

Not much left in the pot after those extra taxes get paid....

Did the new taxes get explained as they would seem like a big disincentive to overseas workers, whilst inviting folks to change nationality at the first available opportunity.

I agree its the US+EU and Russia need to resolve the "pissing contest" alas Ukraine is stuck in the middle.
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Postby Wd40 » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:24 am

Ouch! Having to pay double tax, really hurts man. So what are you planning to do? My thought is how will Ukraine find out how much you are making in Singapore? If I were you, I wont declare my Singapore income at all.

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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:42 am

Barnsley wrote:Did the new taxes get explained as they would seem like a big disincentive to overseas workers, whilst inviting folks to change nationality at the first available opportunity.

I hardly doubt anyone cares about us overseas (just as at home) - they just see a chance to possibly get some extra cash for the upcoming elections.
Wd40 wrote:Ouch! Having to pay double tax, really hurts man. So what are you planning to do? My thought is how will Ukraine find out how much you are making in Singapore? If I were you, I wont declare my Singapore income at all.

So far Ukrainians here are sitting tight and waiting what will happen in the nearest future (and spitting out lots of worst imaginable vulgarities about our politicians each time with beer). There is no way to find out about our income. It is just another very obscure law that can be used to justify anything for whatever purpose needed. As I said, those 3 taxes is a new thing that came out just this year.

Btw, another thing, pension fund in Ukraine - we need to pay if we are still formally Ukrainian residents. But how to define a Ukrainian resident? Either the one who has property there, or the one without PR in another country, or somehow differently... Even Ukrainian consul in Singapore is confused - sending us some explanations from officials. Unfortunately those explanations are so twisted that anyone can interpret them in any way they want. How do you think, what's the purpose of all that?

Meantime we keep rolling down the hill. As I sad, soon there will be a new Somalia in Europe.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:54 am

Sergei82 wrote:1) Recently a new tax was introduced for those Ukrainians working abroad - they must pay up difference between taxes in Ukraine and country of residence. In city as expensive as Singapore paying Ukrainian tax will mean nothing to eat for many. That is very new, none of countries of former USSR is doing that. Since nobody paid that before, we will have difficulties visiting our own country now: we need to show some proof that the taxes were paid.


The way I read that (assuming you mean what you actually wrote) is that your total Income Tax bill will be the same as if you were earning all your current income in the Ukraine, correct? If you are only having to pay the difference between the two countries. This would very much be like the US tax structure (assuming one doesn't qualify for the Income Earned Abroad Exclusion) and using tax credits for taxes paid in the country where you earned your money. The US taxes you on your world wide income regardless of where it is earned or you live. But if you have lived there long enough, you to have the above mentioned exclusion to help.

The other taxes for currency conversions and the import of foreign funds really sounds like theft to me.

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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 13 Dec 2013 11:04 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:...your total Income Tax bill will be the same as if you were earning all your current income in the Ukraine, correct?

yes
sundaymorningstaple wrote:This would very much be like the US tax structure (assuming one doesn't qualify for the Income Earned Abroad Exclusion) and using tax credits for taxes paid in the country where you earned your money.

Yes, but we are not US, which means: no exclusion, no tax credit, and we all know that we will never get any benefit from our country out of those money paid (less than USD 100$ pension after age of 60 is supposed to be a part of retirement paradise? of course, people need to find ways to accumulate money for older age... and our kind politicians want some share).
While I was living in Ukraine I was paying everything. When I left my country about 7 years back, I did not have to share my income bwcause there are double taxation treaties with countries I've been living in. Now suddenly - surprise! Considering what is STILL going on over there even after those 7 years, me and every Ukrainian here feels pretty much disgusted. A bunch of my friends has already cancelled their future trip to their homeland (some chance you wouldn't get out anymore).

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 17 Dec 2013 5:17 pm

Sergei82 wrote:It is not Ukraine who needs to reconcile with both EU+US and Russia, it is EU+US who should come in terms with Russia, Ukraine has nothing to do with all that shit.

I missed this thread somehow. Are you that dependent on Russia that this is EU/US who needs to negotiate, or there are some other reasons?
Any other political power in Ukraine besides these two group of retards as you called them?

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:25 am

Unfortunately, yes. So dependent that Russia can do what it wants to us. That is why we are looking at EU as potential rescue.
And no, we don't have anybody. Opposition is a bunch of jackasses. In fact, 3 jackasses for 3 major opposition parties. When this "revolution" started, they wanted to sack current prime minister and his government. They were short of just few voices in parliament. Why? Because when they had to unite and negotiate with communists, they spent time in squabble with each other (who gets what when the government is down… when its not down yet in fact). Communists are the smallest fraction in government, but their support would've been enough to lay off the government. Communists did not vote. When everything came out, their leader directly said: "I am surprised nobody negotiated with us. We could have supported the voting." And that's it. The ruling party is the most consolidated and the largest one (that does not mean its not a bunch of morons as well) while "opposition" virtually does not exist - none of them can agree with each other on anything.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 8:32 am

I think this is not too dissimilar to what you see in other countries that get politically 'liberated' from long-term one-party rule.

It is a very long road to achieving it, and the opposition become very adept at opposing government (the job of the 'Opposition' being to do just that). But then if they suddenly get a breakthrough and win power, they often don't really believe it at first, and don't actually know quite what to do. They've opposed all along, but now they have to lead, and be opposed themselves.

Just look at the countries involved in the Arab Spring. However much the majority in those countries welcomed freedom, I think each of them initially descended into anarchy.

It is a shame such countries don't better divine the direction of the wind and accommodate it ('The strongest tree is the one that bends with the wind') before it's too late. But, by their nature one-party states don't function like that.

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 8:36 am

Sergei82 wrote:1) Recently a new tax was introduced for those Ukrainians working abroad - they must pay up difference between taxes in Ukraine and country of residence.


Boo hoo. -From, an American

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 18 Dec 2013 9:02 am

Clearly the best for Ukraine would be to strengthen the economy first and get stable and credible government and only later decide. Being economically dependent on Russia will probably make the economy collapse very soon if Ukraine formally declares joining EU is its way. I don't think EU/US will be able and that willing to help before the political stage get stabilized and gains some credibility. For the time being maintaining the status quo with Russia would be IMHO desirable but unfortunately Yanukovych made Ukraine even more dependent just day or two ago signing a new treaty and getting cheaper (theoretically) natural gas supplies. Russian gas is a very efficient tool for controlling other countries economies so this seems a very risky direction to go.


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