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kookaburrah
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Postby kookaburrah » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 5:48 pm

I am sure that if you look at the US, there are states that will forever rely on both the influx of money from other wealthier states, and on the availability of opportunities elsewhere for their more ambitious residents. I don't see New Yorkers demanding North Dakota out of the union because it isn't contributing enough towards the union.

Whether the EU is a worthy project or not is actually a interesting debate. To reduce it all to a silly little (but incessant) rant on thieves and drug users abusing the system is as simplistic as it is pathetic.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 5:53 pm

Oh touche darling!

:lol:

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 5:56 pm

So why should Romanian gypsies be paid to move to England, or Paris, or where ever, so they can be given big houses in the likes of Kensington and 'free everything'?

Kindly assist in lifting the scales from upon mine eyes.

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Postby kookaburrah » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 6:17 pm

I don't think the system must be shot down because there are half a dozen Romanians living in Chelsea. Even if there are 100 Romanians living in Chelsea (which I find hard to believe) you seem to prefer the pleasure of kicking their undeserving butts back to wherever they came from rather than looking at the benefits of free movement. Like the Daily Mail, you chose to only look at the gypsies. We have companies settling all over the continent following cheaper labour. We have thousands of skilled and unskilled workers living away from their home countries. We even have our own Snowbirds, buying their houses along the Mediterranean. Part of the problem in Europe is the fact that Europeans all seem to think they're all so different. I say we're all a lot alike - this free movement should help everyone see that.

Have a further read on the money many economists are saying Britain would save by toughening their immigration and benefits laws as Cameron is proposing. It doesn't seem to be much, and certainly should not be worth the blow to the country's image.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 7:28 pm

I don't think the system must be shot down because there are half a dozen Romanians living in Chelsea. Even if there are 100 Romanians living in Chelsea (which I find hard to believe).

That wasn’t my question :)
I asked: ‘So why should Romanian gypsies be paid to move to England, or Paris, or where ever, so they can be given big houses in the likes of Kensington and 'free everything'?


you seem to prefer the pleasure of kicking their undeserving butts back to wherever they came from rather than looking at the benefits of free movement.

I’m not enjoying anything barring not wishing to support employable scroungers, that end up with a better standard of living than decent hard-working families.

Part of the problem in Europe is the fact that Europeans all seem to think they're all so different. I say we're all a lot alike - this free movement should help everyone see that.

I disagree, we are very unalike. Your statement is as meretricious as suggesting Thais are actually really like Cambodians, just they don’t know, but now thanks to their politicians, they will overlook thousands of years of regional history, and soon see the errors of their past [everyone smile now, and just hand over $5k in additional taxes to sponsor this idea].


Have a further read on the money many economists are saying Britain would save by toughening their immigration and benefits laws as Cameron is proposing. It doesn't seem to be much, and certainly should not be worth the blow to the country's image.

It’s image in who's eyes? And why I should I be made to pay for it to be otherwise?
The EU is a lie, a lie foisted on the people via planned progressive deception (ref: Jean Monnet etc)

BTW what’s your motive? You’re clearly fully signed up to the programme.

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Postby PrimroseHill » Wed, 04 Dec 2013 10:30 am

My 2 cents worth - I think that state benefits whether it is dole/back to work/job seekers should be scrapped. It was a post-war initiative to get the country and its people moving again. So once the dole is scrapped, together with it all the benefits - free dental, free eye test, housing benefit, free council tax etc etc.
Incapacity benefit should remain; however, rather than the rules prescribed by the govt, something sensible and common sense should prevail. The MS and blind person should not have their benefit cut, it should be the people pretending to be handicapped those should be cut.

NHS - something should be done. I agree that some sort of a NHS should remain, however, it should not be a postal code lottery in terms of medicine. And foreigners and tourists should not be given access to free NHS, not even A&E.

Pension - wtf. Caps on how much each person can save annually and the entire pot? Tax on withdrawal? Tax, tax tax.

Immigration - OG

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Postby kookaburrah » Wed, 04 Dec 2013 12:41 pm

Aren't you two, two peas in a pod. :)

This is an ideological discussion, which, while not making it any less interesting, does make it largely academic.

I sit on the opposite side of the fence. I believe the Romanians and swindlers you speak of are the exception, not the rule. Considering the number of people who are genuinely helped by these benefits, an amount of wastage is unavoidable. I too am enraged by cheats, but would rather blame the cheats, not the system.

Within reason, i guess I've always been on the "Haves" side. I am convinced I have a duty to contribute towards the "Have-nots", even if in the process I am helping a couple of crafty Romanians move into a house I cannot afford myself.

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Postby aster » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 2:37 am

kookaburrah wrote:The Brit indeed does not speak for the overwhelming proportion of Europeans. In fact, nowadays Brits are Europeans by accident only, and even that seems to horrify them beyond words.

I see the open borders as a great improvement, and one much more profound than what JR8 describes. In the continent (and Ireland) the movement of people has increased immensely, especially of young professionals - many of my friends are scattered around Europe whereas 10 years ago they'd all be pretty much confined to one place. In many ways, it reminds me of the US, where people (particularly young professionals) move about from one state to another in search of new opportunities. I see it becoming as natural and widespread in Europe.

Oh and people DO move south on account of those 7 days of rain. ALL the time (and from the UK as well!)


Well said. :)

The UK is unfortunately losing its voice in Europe, with those in power choosing to start petty little arguments for political gains alone (from the lowest ends of society). The UK knows it's place is in Europe, that's where the majority of its trade is done (not China, not the US), in truth the country would even benefit from being part of the Euro-zone. But politics and lobbying by the global banking machine will prevent that from happening in the immediate future. Shame, really, because I used to recall one Pound being worth 2 Euros. Now it's like 1:1.2. Pretty soon the Pound will become the Euro, just with different looking banknotes and coins...

The less boundaries the better - the fact that people can move around the continent, live where they want, study where they want, work where they want, is a great achievement for Europe as a whole. Even the US does not enjoy such privileges as students from a different state even are charged as if they were foreigners.

Today the EU leads the world in many areas. It is the richest place on the planet and is also the world's largest economy by GDP. Need I mention human rights as well?

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Postby PNGMK » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 8:15 am

AngMoG wrote:
JR8 wrote:Phhhh ...

By all means. Most of us EU'ers wouldn't bother going even for a weekend...


I have to say the Brit does not speak for "most EU'ers" ;)

Though frankly, Belgium is not the most interesting place to be, and Brussels was the only place I ever got my wallet stolen.


I lived in "Bruxelles" for one year and loved it. You have to live IN Belgium for some time for it to grow on you.

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Postby PrimroseHill » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 8:49 am

aster wrote:
kookaburrah wrote:The Brit indeed does not speak for the overwhelming proportion of Europeans. In fact, nowadays Brits are Europeans by accident only, and even that seems to horrify them beyond words.

I see the open borders as a great improvement, and one much more profound than what JR8 describes. In the continent (and Ireland) the movement of people has increased immensely, especially of young professionals - many of my friends are scattered around Europe whereas 10 years ago they'd all be pretty much confined to one place. In many ways, it reminds me of the US, where people (particularly young professionals) move about from one state to another in search of new opportunities. I see it becoming as natural and widespread in Europe.

Oh and people DO move south on account of those 7 days of rain. ALL the time (and from the UK as well!)


Well said. :)

The UK is unfortunately losing its voice in Europe, with those in power choosing to start petty little arguments for political gains alone (from the lowest ends of society). The UK knows it's place is in Europe, that's where the majority of its trade is done (not China, not the US), in truth the country would even benefit from being part of the Euro-zone. But politics and lobbying by the global banking machine will prevent that from happening in the immediate future. Shame, really, because I used to recall one Pound being worth 2 Euros. Now it's like 1:1.2. Pretty soon the Pound will become the Euro, just with different looking banknotes and coins...

The less boundaries the better - the fact that people can move around the continent, live where they want, study where they want, work where they want, is a great achievement for Europe as a whole. Even the US does not enjoy such privileges as students from a different state even are charged as if they were foreigners.

Today the EU leads the world in many areas. It is the richest place on the planet and is also the world's largest economy by GDP. Need I mention human rights as well?

I do agree with this. I do believe that the UK would benefit from joining the EUR.
Less boundaries the better.
I just hate the scavengers. and the cheats.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:10 am

aster wrote:The Brit indeed does not speak for the overwhelming proportion of Europeans.


Quite, and I'm not attempting to. However my opinion is probably representative of a majority of 'Brits'. [In the spirit of pan-Eu harmony I hope you won't mind if I refer to you as 'The Kraut' in future :)].

aster wrote:In fact, nowadays Brits are Europeans by accident only, and even that seems to horrify them beyond words.


The UK joined the EU (then EEC) via political deception. It went to a referendum in 1973 and Ted Heath extolled the virtues of this free trade block, that meant you could' travel anywhere in Europe without a passport'. Of course the superstate and all it's bells and sinecures followed quietly right behind.

You don't seem to realise that most 'Brits' do not want to be a part of the EU.

aster wrote:I see the open borders as a great improvement, and one much more profound than what JR8 describes. In the continent (and Ireland) the movement of people has increased immensely, especially of young professionals - many of my friends are scattered around Europe whereas 10 years ago they'd all be pretty much confined to one place.


Not in my experience. I've been letting property in London for 17-20 years, and I don't see an increase in the proportion of EU tenants. If I did, as a businessman, you'd expect me to be supporting it, and hailing it with open arms, but I don't.

aster wrote:The UK is unfortunately losing its voice in Europe, with those in power choosing to start petty little arguments for political gains alone (from the lowest ends of society).


Yes, the continentals must be so sad about that. After all they historically are such good neighbours (not).

And yes the 'petty little arguments' from the 'lowest end of society', don't you just hate that. Democracy sucks you know. Much more convenient being millionaire socialists, and just sending the tanks in.

aster wrote:The UK knows it's place is in Europe, that's where the majority of its trade is done


Yes, Germany would see it as under it's jackboot lol :). Don't you see why so many people are repelled by the idea of being under some Franco-German political axis? It was only a generation ago, and a generation before that, that we were fighting you all off. I know that the Germans would like to 'sort of not speak about that any more ['don't mention the war']', but memories are long.

Oh and - In August 2013, exports of goods to countries outside of the European Union (EU) increased by £0.7 billion to £12.3 billion. Exports to countries within the EU decreased by £0.4 billion over the same period to £12.8 billion. -
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/uktrade/u ... -2013.html

A pretty slim majority considering proximity?


aster wrote:(not China, not the US), in truth the country would even benefit from being part of the Euro-zone. But politics and lobbying by the global banking machine will prevent that from happening in the immediate future. Shame, really, because I used to recall one Pound being worth 2 Euros. Now it's like 1:1.2. Pretty soon the Pound will become the Euro, just with different looking banknotes and coins...



Are you suggesting it would be better to be like say, Greece? In a once in a generation economic death-spiral from which it might never recover, all because it is in the euro, which it cannot adjust in any way to suit it's circumstances?

You're doing a pretty good job in demonstrating why 'the Brits' don't want to join the euro, I mean just listen to yourself for a few minutes.

aster wrote:The less boundaries the better - the fact that people can move around the continent, live where they want, study where they want, work where they want, is a great achievement for Europe as a whole.


They could do that before the EU came about.

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Postby AndrewV » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:43 am

wondering myself why so few people are considering canada

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Postby the lynx » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:44 am

AndrewV wrote:wondering myself why so few people are considering canada


Too cold, too wild? (images of grizzly bears come to mind)

:lol:

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Postby Barnsley » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:48 am

AndrewV wrote:wondering myself why so few people are considering canada


Read an article today that Canada has a shortage in skilled labour.

Also some oil and gas expansion going on as well.
Life is short, paddle harder!!

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Postby PrimroseHill » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:51 am

too cold too much tax too sedantary


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