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The subtle erosion of equality

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Postby PNGMK » Mon, 02 Dec 2013 9:43 pm

beppi wrote:
aster wrote:Singapore must be the only "developed" country in the world where the entire country has run out of school places for primary one, all taken be it north, south, east or west. So much for thinking ahead and planning...

I wonder how that goes along with the perennial whine about Singaporeans not having enough children ...


They've miscalculated the TFR and immigrant inflow and shut down too many schools. There's at least 5 within walking distance of me that have been shut down in the last decade and either left idle or leased out to International Schools. The classes are jammed tight as well.

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Postby aster » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 2:15 am

PNGMK wrote:They've miscalculated the TFR and immigrant inflow and shut down too many schools. There's at least 5 within walking distance of me that have been shut down in the last decade and either left idle or leased out to International Schools. The classes are jammed tight as well.


Interesting. Probably the highest-paid minister of education in the world and yet the horrible lack of planning never comes to light in the local media. It's just convenienty swept under the carpet while the MOE announces another hugely successful year where all parents are happy as all their kids have found their way into this hugely successful education system. ;)

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 8:49 am

Harsh but fair.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 8:54 am

Wd40 wrote:Companies have already started adopting this "Only Singaporeans" practice.

There are 35 ads in monster with "Only Singaporeans"

http://jobsearch.monster.com.sg/searchr ... mit.y=-290


So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.

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Postby the lynx » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:07 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Companies have already started adopting this "Only Singaporeans" practice.

There are 35 ads in monster with "Only Singaporeans"

http://jobsearch.monster.com.sg/searchr ... mit.y=-290


So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


I think the only difference is that you lose job, your PR helps you to stay but you lose job under EP, you have to leave within 30 days. Oh and that CPF bit too.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:26 am

Strong Eagle wrote:So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


Sadly, SE, it seems to be coming to that. There doesn't seem to be any benefit if one is in good health, to PR anymore. In fact, health reasons aren't a valid reason either, what with the subsidies reduced for PRs and all the other limitations being implemented. Although the Military obligation for the sons hasn't been reduced! It's depressing to say the least.

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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:35 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Companies have already started adopting this "Only Singaporeans" practice.

There are 35 ads in monster with "Only Singaporeans"

http://jobsearch.monster.com.sg/searchr ... mit.y=-290


So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


At least in those posting, yes. It's entirely up to the company. Remember, their country their rules :) Stupid as it may be. My guess is that this is because 'they' inadvertently turned PR into a monster loaded with people they'd rather not be PRs. They're probably hoping to squeeze the benefits a bit tighter for a few years and a lot of the PRs they don't want will hope off to another destination where it is then seen as easier and/or more desirable to obtain a PR.

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Postby PNGMK » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:39 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


Sadly, SE, it seems to be coming to that. There doesn't seem to be any benefit if one is in good health, to PR anymore. In fact, health reasons aren't a valid reason either, what with the subsidies reduced for PRs and all the other limitations being implemented. Although the Military obligation for the sons hasn't been reduced! It's depressing to say the least.


I remember when I first joined this forum I was arguing that Singapore PR was not really "PR" and was shouted down (I argued that Singapore PR vs Australia PR had a lot of issues). Seems I was a prophet.

I am now seriously trying to work out how I can not be a PR and still stay here while working for a major MNC. It's a one way trap unfortunately it seems ..... if you take out your CPF at least.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:50 am

PNGMK wrote:I remember when I first joined this forum I was arguing that Singapore PR was not really "PR" and was shouted down (I argued that Singapore PR vs Australia PR had a lot of issues). Seems I was a prophet.


That or you are the reason we're in this mess! :lol:

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:53 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


Sadly, SE, it seems to be coming to that. There doesn't seem to be any benefit if one is in good health, to PR anymore. In fact, health reasons aren't a valid reason either, what with the subsidies reduced for PRs and all the other limitations being implemented. Although the Military obligation for the sons hasn't been reduced! It's depressing to say the least.


So, if I take this to the next logical step, I cannot be hired in place of a Singapore citizen. Nor can I apply for an EP. I'm actually a f*cked duck... you can't hire me because I am a PR but you can hire an EP?

Surely we misunderstand something of this new rule?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 9:58 am

We're thrown in with the EP types. They must advertise for a minimum of, I believe, 2 weeks, for locals only and also must attempt to find the person through the Gov't Job Bank for 14 days as well. They must track their attempts to find a local and if still cannot they can open it up (e.g., make no specific request for nationality/citizenship/PR/Local. It circuitous, but it may also just slow down our ability to secure employment in the future as we will be competing directly with EP seekers. I reckon we will still have a leg up in that regard, but we no longer get to compete at 1st tier level.

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Postby AngMoG » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 10:10 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote:So, let me understand this... for the purposes of hiring, PR's are no different than an EP or a tourist searching for a job? PR means nothing in terms of equality in job hunting? I'm second class?

Please clarify. Given that PR is nothing but a revocable economic status, it seems odd that a PR cannot compete equally with a SG citizen.


Sadly, SE, it seems to be coming to that. There doesn't seem to be any benefit if one is in good health, to PR anymore. In fact, health reasons aren't a valid reason either, what with the subsidies reduced for PRs and all the other limitations being implemented. Although the Military obligation for the sons hasn't been reduced! It's depressing to say the least.


So, if I take this to the next logical step, I cannot be hired in place of a Singapore citizen. Nor can I apply for an EP. I'm actually a f*cked duck... you can't hire me because I am a PR but you can hire an EP?

Surely we misunderstand something of this new rule?


Well, the benefits of being PR are not as gone as you think... You would still be given preference over an EP, as when it comes to quotas, you should still be counted mostly as local (unless there are very few SCs in the company). And, unlike for EP, the gahmen cannot prevent a company from hiring you.

But, SCs would be given "first dibs" on any job in a company larger than 20 employees. Then everyone else can apply too, with PRs having an advantage over EPs (more secure visa) combined with some disadvantages (more expensive due to CPF).

And job ad-wise, "Singaporeans preferred" will be the new "Singaporean/PR only".

All said and done though, Singaporean PR is, and has been for quite a while, a "kind-of-permanent" residency. The government can take it away at any moment - I heard of two specific instances, (1) somebody who owned HDB but did not want to take up an "invitation" to citizenship and (2) somebody who was PR and supporting a family but not earning enough in the eyes of ICA to support them. Additionally, children of PR parents are no longer guaranteed PR, and renewal may not be automatic for some groups. And this is also the only country I know of where there are distinctions in terms of government benefits between citizens and PRs. (In most other countries, being PR gives you the same rights and obligations save for voting.) In most other countries, the only reason to lose PR is to be out of the country for a defined period of time - even that is fuzzy here.

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Postby kookaburrah » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:28 am

^^This

Totally agree with this assessment

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Postby Addadude » Tue, 03 Dec 2013 1:45 pm

Trying to look at this thing from a neutral perspective, I personally know of MNC's that are really taking the p!ss when it comes to their preferences in hiring policies.

One major recruitment company has over the past couple of years almost completely replaced its local staff with caucasians - preferably from the UK.

Another MNC I'm very familiar with has been pretty much been forced by its biggest client (a really huge MNC we've all heard of) to replace its local staff dealing with that particular client with people from a certain sub-continent.

I suspect both companies will have huge problems next year when it comes to renewing EPs.

And it serves them right.
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Postby AndrewV » Thu, 05 Dec 2013 10:53 am

Addadude wrote:Trying to look at this thing from a neutral perspective, I personally know of MNC's that are really taking the p!ss when it comes to their preferences in hiring policies.

One major recruitment company has over the past couple of years almost completely replaced its local staff with caucasians - preferably from the UK.

Another MNC I'm very familiar with has been pretty much been forced by its biggest client (a really huge MNC we've all heard of) to replace its local staff dealing with that particular client with people from a certain sub-continent.

I suspect both companies will have huge problems next year when it comes to renewing EPs.

And it serves them right.


i think we needed this neutral perspective at least once in this thread


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