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On the receiving end of a racist Tirade...

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Barnsley
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Postby Barnsley » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 3:00 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:
bloodhound123 wrote: Realizing my mistake I apologized to her only to get this response "Stop ! You have no right to say sorry"


This doesn't even make sense. People here are so stupid.

That's one thing I find surprising here - despite the supposed 'world class' education system, many people (young and old) seem to have real trouble expressing themselves in clear, correct English. A while ago, Mrs. Mi Amigo was falsely accused of queue-jumping at the checkouts in Fair Price. A gentlemen (who had not seen properly what had happened, but formed his own opinion nevertheless) approached her and said, "We all have the right to queue up!" To which my good lady replied, "Yes, we do, don't we?"

It seems that the fear people previously had about speaking out in public is now rapidly vanishing, probably due to them 'getting away with it' online. Now I wonder how many of the people who have smiled and been nice to me over the years have only done that in the expectation of extracting some money or other benefit from me, and actually despised me underneath all the pleasant comments and gestures. I really want to give people the benefit of the doubt and maintain my faith in human nature generally, but at times like this it becomes harder.

IMO this place is heading for serious problems if the bigoted vitriol and anti-foreigner sentiment / policies continue to grow.

Barnsley, sorry to hear of your experience mate. We'll help you put this behind you on Friday night.


Cheers Fella,

The guy having a pop.at me was equally clueless as to the facts also but chose to make up in his head what the "truth" was. Despite me explaining that he wasnt even there when the queue formed.
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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 5:22 pm

AngMoG wrote:
Well, my preparations are almost complete at least. Leaving Singapore early next year after 7 years here, to head to Manila with a job secured. A long time, and I will certainly miss some things such as food, while being glad to leave for other things such as the sky-high rents and alcohol prices.


I'll miss fresh high-end durian like mao shan wang. A lot.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 5:46 pm

bloodhound123 wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:That's one thing I find surprising here - despite the supposed 'world class' education system, many people (young and old) seem to have real trouble expressing themselves in clear, correct English.


What is the correlation between a "world class education" system and "correct English"? Japan, Germany too have world class education systems, but one wouldnt expect them to speak in "correct English". Agreed, English is the first language in Singapore, but most Singaporeans are not native speakers of English. As a non native speaker you tend to think or express yourself more in terms of your native language. Linguistic constructs in a language have a huge bearing on one's culture and thought process. And given the pervasive effect of Singlish right from Childhood, I would not be surprised even if the best educated folks here ( or any country for that matter where English is not the native language but is taught in schools as the first language ) struggle with "correct English".

Er... I think you've kind of made the point I was trying to make, but I'm not sure. Given that English is one of the national languages here, and the lingua franca for most business activity, I would expect the much hyped 'world class' education system to provide its graduates with the ability to communicate in an efficient and unambiguous manner in English - not just with fellow Singaporeans, but with people from other nationalities who live or visit here. I'm not expecting them to speak in BBC English / RP, but when many of them seem unable to construct a sentence to properly express the desired meaning, that's a pretty poor state of affairs. I've come across this so many times - verbally and in writing - where people will for example convey the exact opposite of what they were meaning to say (e.g. "We can do that" when they meant to imply "We cannot do that.") Having heard about how poorly some teachers speak to their pupils in local schools, I guess we shouldn't be surprised.

When they've kicked us all out and they are left to their own devices, who's going to be left to interpret from Singlish or attempted English into a meaningful language?
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Postby Mi Amigo » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 5:54 pm

Barnsley wrote:Cheers Fella,

The guy having a pop.at me was equally clueless as to the facts also but chose to make up in his head what the "truth" was. Despite me explaining that he wasnt even there when the queue formed.

Just remember - "We all have the right to queue up!" :lol: :mrgreen: :cool:
(whatever that means).
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Postby bloodhound123 » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 6:14 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
bloodhound123 wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:That's one thing I find surprising here - despite the supposed 'world class' education system, many people (young and old) seem to have real trouble expressing themselves in clear, correct English.


What is the correlation between a "world class education" system and "correct English"? Japan, Germany too have world class education systems, but one wouldnt expect them to speak in "correct English". Agreed, English is the first language in Singapore, but most Singaporeans are not native speakers of English. As a non native speaker you tend to think or express yourself more in terms of your native language. Linguistic constructs in a language have a huge bearing on one's culture and thought process. And given the pervasive effect of Singlish right from Childhood, I would not be surprised even if the best educated folks here ( or any country for that matter where English is not the native language but is taught in schools as the first language ) struggle with "correct English".

Er... I think you've kind of made the point I was trying to make, but I'm not sure. Given that English is one of the national languages here, and the lingua franca for most business activity, I would expect the much hyped 'world class' education system to provide its graduates with the ability to communicate in an efficient and unambiguous manner in English - not just with fellow Singaporeans, but with people from other nationalities who live or visit here. I'm not expecting them to speak in BBC English / RP, but when many of them seem unable to construct a sentence to properly express the desired meaning, that's a pretty poor state of affairs. I've come across this so many times - verbally and in writing - where people will for example convey the exact opposite of what they were meaning to say (e.g. "We can do that" when they meant to imply "We cannot do that.") Having heard about how poorly some teachers speak to their pupils in local schools, I guess we shouldn't be surprised.



Yeah you pointed out the answer. Unless it is taught correctly right from your childhood it is very difficult to inculcate the habit of making an effort to use the correct grammar and language constructs. The intention of Singlish seems to be to convey the meaning somehow to the other party, but rarely is an effort made by the speaker to try to use/learn the correct grammar and language constructs. I read a very good book called "Metaphors we live by" by George Lakoff several years back. Explains why people interpret different constructs differently and even the exact opposite meaning sometimes.

When they've kicked us all out and they are left to their own devices, who's going to be left to interpret from Singlish or attempted English into a meaningful language?


:) This thought crossed my mind too when the tightening of foreign inflow was in full swing

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Postby bloodhound123 » Wed, 20 Nov 2013 6:17 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
Barnsley wrote:Cheers Fella,

The guy having a pop.at me was equally clueless as to the facts also but chose to make up in his head what the "truth" was. Despite me explaining that he wasnt even there when the queue formed.

Just remember - "We all have the right to queue up!" :lol: :mrgreen: :cool:
(whatever that means).


I too could not interpret when I was told "Stop ! you have no right to say sorry" but realized that the young lady wanted to spew venom at me for my mistake.

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Postby movingtospore » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:37 am

I think, the challenge many locals have is that culturally they're never been taught how to engage in a debate with someone - to trade ideas, even argue, and then work it out. Humour is never used or understood as a way to defuse confrontations...so they go from 0 to 60 in a second and end up looking like idiots...like your lady on the train...who was annoyed with you for getting in her way...but the only thing she could come up with was totally nonsensical. I've also seen two old men get into a fist-fight in Korea over a spot at a table (I think), raging shouting matches in Hong Kong between taxi drivers and business people, two older people playing chicken with their cars here in Sing because they were both too stubborn/stupid to move...on and on.

I get the impression this is not uncommon in many Asian cultures - people keep their heads down, explode at one point and then everything continues as if nothing happened. But the unique problem in Singapore is that they are surrounded by others from SE Asia, India, Europe, and North American who challenge them constantly and don't accept that behaviour. Their heads must be cracking.

AFter 4+ years here I have a very bad impression of many Singaporeans. Bunch of whiny babies. I've also met some really exceptional local people here, and they share a lot of our frustration re the state of things here.

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:49 am

AngMoG wrote:Well, my preparations are almost complete at least. Leaving Singapore early next year after 7 years here, to head to Manila with a job secured. A long time, and I will certainly miss some things such as food, while being glad to leave for other things such as the sky-high rents and alcohol prices. One thing that really drives me nuts here though is the uncertainty for the future; as a non-PR on PEP without a P1 salary (expiring end 2014), it is difficult to plan, as you never know which EP renewal/issuance will be your last. And even getting PR has now become a 12-24 months process. I foresee that PRs will also not be safe for long, especially those in the lower income categories.



Wow, Manila.....typhoon alley, earthquake epicentre. At least there isn't a threatening active volcano nearby! :wink: I really hate the traffic there and blacked out windows on the car are vital, absolutely vital. The people are great and I always have a good time but it's still kinda like stepping back into a Wild West 'Leave your guns at the door' type place.

I already had me renewal for EP rejected last year but got it for three years on appeal, a hassle I didn't need - something to do with owning a local company blah, blah, blah. My next target is to get our son at least through the next 5yrs of primary school and work out what to do then. We either stay or move to HK, or even back up to KL where I had a great 5yrs.

Mi Amigo wrote:Rule 2 - NEVER assume that your circumstances will definitely be the same tomorrow as they are today. Don't take on a rental contract, credit card debt, mobile phone contracts, etc. if you don't have the means to exit them cleanly and fairly if/when the unexpected occurs.


^THIS

If I get my EP renewal in 2015 then I'll make contracts and get my new car (COE expires May'16 anyway so a perfect time) but with less than 2yrs to go, you are right, don't enter into anything you can't easily get out of. I've just decided not to renew my SingTel contract, my landlord should be open to flexible renting, I sublease my office from a friend, I'm not buying any new furniture (even though I really need some new pieces) just so's I can leave everything behind or dump it.

Everybody on EP, S-Pass etc. should have their plans made or at least roughly thought through! It's not only an issue with regards Singapore so I'm not trying to suggest this place is different like that, but with regulations and growing animosity it is the sensible thing to do, especially if you have kids.
Last edited by ScoobyDoes on Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby the lynx » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:01 am

bloodhound123 wrote:...the young lady wanted to spew venom at me for my mistake.


Or his/her own mistake.

A local called me a whore in a club because I rejected his advances and he saw me speaking to an "angmoh" after that.

(I was actually with a group of friends but he didn't see the rest of them and decided that I was "peddling my services" to just one "angmoh").

It must have hurt him so badly.

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Postby AngMoG » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:33 am

ScoobyDoes wrote:Wow, Manila.....typhoon alley, earthquake epicentre. At least there isn't a threatening active volcano nearby! :wink: I really hate the traffic there and blacked out windows on the car are vital, absolutely vital. The people are great and I always have a good time but it's still kinda like stepping back into a Wild West 'Leave your guns at the door' type place.


Well, as always there are upsides and downsides. ;) I think they have an active volcano or two, just not close to Manila fortunately... :cool:

on the upside, my visa is secure longer-term, I can afford a house and a car (on the downside, I actually need one), and the booze prices won't make me cry.

ScoobyDoes wrote:Everybody on EP, S-Pass etc. should have their plans made or at least roughly thought through! It's not only an issue with regards Singapore so I'm not trying to suggest this place is different like that, but with regulations and growing animosity it is the sensible thing to do, especially if you have kids.


Yup, I cannot stress this enough in the current circumstances. One needs to have thought through what happens if one's EP does not get renewed next time. Personally, we have not renewed mobile phone contracts, cable and internet contracts for a while now, we just let them run. Rental is an issue, because we had to move recently, and finding an apartment while being upfront about needing to be able to move on short notice is quite tricky. Many landlords are not too open about dynamic renewal...

I would suggest taking a 2-year contract with diplomatic clause if one's EP expiry is between 1 and 2 years away.

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Postby Wd40 » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:44 am

As a matter of coincidence, yesterday I went to Fairprice with my baby daughter in a pram and then I left her near one of the shelfs and was looking at buying something, suddenly realised that my pram was blocking another lady's pram with a baby.

I quickly appologised and pulled my pram away. The lady a young malay smiled and just said "Its ok". I just kept thinking all the while after that, that not all locals are bad and lucky most of my experience with locals around my area have been very pleasant.

I guess its just the type of places where you get stressed out locals in MRT etc where you get such behaviour. But within heartlands, people are much nicer.

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:48 am

AngMoG wrote:
Well, as always there are upsides and downsides. ;) I think they have an active volcano or two, just not close to Manila fortunately... :cool:

on the upside, my visa is secure longer-term, I can afford a house and a car (on the downside, I actually need one), and the booze prices won't make me cry.



Well I did say non-threatening....... :wink:

You definitely NEED a car, and I would suggest going further and getting a local driver too! Not only because you run risks being a foreigner if you have an accident but also because parking is a b!tch and it'll be good just to have somebody look after that for you. It won't cost you a bomb but it could save you a lot of agro, which is pretty much priceless.

Maybe next time I head over I give you a bell and we enjoy a couple of cold Lights.....at about 30c a bottle. Oh yeah, another reason you'd be better with a driver \:D/
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'



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Postby x9200 » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:11 pm

It really looks like often they don't know what to say in some potentially conflicting or problematic situations. A classic: if there is a mistake on their side and I try to have the problem fixed proposing some solutions (or they do it) and then I hear something like: We will do it for you. ...no, you will do it for yourself as this is you who failed.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:20 pm

x9200 wrote:It really looks like often they don't know what to say in some potentially conflicting or problematic situations. A classic: if there is a mistake on their side and I try to have the problem fixed proposing some solutions (or they do it) and then I hear something like: We will do it for you. ...no, you will do it for yourself as this is you who failed.

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Postby kookaburrah » Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:31 pm

This and "is there anything ELSE I can help you with?"

"How could you, if you did not help me at all in the first place."


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