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PEP and expired passport

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sergueis
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PEP and expired passport

Postby sergueis » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 11:42 am

I have PEP which expires on 18 March 2014. My passport expired 4 months ago and I just recently applied for a new one. Do I break any law by staying in Singapore with expired passport?
The best would be to have a link to MOM/ICA website which explains this.

I'm trying to rent an apartment and landlord says I break the law so he refuses me based only on the fact that my passport has been expired. So, what law do I break? My new passport will be ready in 3 weeks but I can't wait for 3 weeks.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:33 pm

Did you try calling ICA? Seeing as how this is there purview I would have thought that would have been the very first option. That or calling your embassy, as I'm sure they could also tell you the straight skinny. Frankly, I don't know, but I have my doubts if you would be in any real trouble, but I really don't have a clue.

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Postby sergueis » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:43 pm

I think ICA has nothing to do with Employment Passes. And my embassy is closed for weekend...

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Postby zzm9980 » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 2:22 pm

sergueis wrote:I think ICA has nothing to do with Employment Passes.


But they have everything to do with immigration law. MOM issued you a PEP with the visa, but it's all based on ICA's rules. They'll be the ones who will tell you what happens if you're here on a valid visa but your passport is expired.

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Postby ecureilx » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 2:37 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
sergueis wrote:I think ICA has nothing to do with Employment Passes.


But they have everything to do with immigration law. MOM issued you a PEP with the visa, but it's all based on ICA's rules. They'll be the ones who will tell you what happens if you're here on a valid visa but your passport is expired.


+1 .. and your pass is valid as long as your travel document is valid

If you get 12 months visa, for example, but passport expired in 6 months, the rest of the 6 months - you are an illegal immigrant, as you have NO TRAVEL DOCUMENT TO STAY HERE ..

.. pray, how do you ignore 4 months expired passport ? and then say Embassy closed for the weekend ??

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If you get 12 months visa, for example, but passport expired

Postby sergueis » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 2:44 pm

If you get 12 months visa, for example, but passport expired in 6 months, the rest of the 6 months - you are an illegal immigrant, as you have NO TRAVEL DOCUMENT TO STAY HERE ..

Could you point me to the proper ICA web page stating just that but regarding PEP? It's totally different. PEP is issued for 5 years and it's just designed to last longer than the current travel document. And if I don't travel who cares about travel document?) Yeah, there was 4 month-long weekend... kind of :)

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Re: If you get 12 months visa, for example, but passport exp

Postby ecureilx » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 2:51 pm

sergueis wrote:
If you get 12 months visa, for example, but passport expired in 6 months, the rest of the 6 months - you are an illegal immigrant, as you have NO TRAVEL DOCUMENT TO STAY HERE ..

It's totally different. PEP is issued for 5 years and it's just designed to last longer than the current travel document. And if I don't travel who cares about travel document?) Yeah, there was 4 month-long weekend... kind of :)


not gonna argue with you .. but any form of residency/visa etc. have a foot note that says "AS LONG AS YOUR TRAVEL DOCUMENT IS VALID"

Feel Free to interpreter it any way you want ..

In my interpretation, from having seen enough EP Holders who forgot to renew their passport, and all ended up with warnings/fines, good on you if you think your PEP=LEGAL REQUIREMENT TO STAY HERE, on top of your PEP ..

And don't forget, PEP=not identification docuemnt of your country of origin

By your logic, say, PR holders also can forget about renewing passports, if they don't travel, am I right there ?

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Postby sergueis » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 2:58 pm

any form of residency/visa etc. have a foot note that says "AS LONG AS YOUR TRAVEL DOCUMENT IS VALID"

Have just read my PEP carefully. There's no such a foot note.
E.g., New Zealand immigration website says directly that NZ work visa can last longer than the current passport if there's your embassy in NZ which can renew the passport.

By your logic, say, PR holders also can forget about renewing passports, if they don't travel, am I right there ?

Correct.

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Postby ecureilx » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 3:19 pm

sergueis wrote:
any form of residency/visa etc. have a foot note that says "AS LONG AS YOUR TRAVEL DOCUMENT IS VALID"

Have just read my PEP carefully. There's no such a foot note.
E.g., New Zealand immigration website says directly that NZ work visa can last longer than the current passport if there's your embassy in NZ which can renew the passport.


Right, and it also says you don't have to ensure your passport is valid ?? What you are reading means, you can get a 12 month visa with, say, 6 months validity remainign on the passport, but you must get the passport renewed before it expires .. not insist you don't need to ..

sergueis wrote:
By your logic, say, PR holders also can forget about renewing passports, if they don't travel, am I right there ?

Correct.


I see .... then I learn't something new ........ NOT ..

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 3:48 pm

sergueis,

I hate to say this, but you screwed up. You know it. And you are here hoping on hope for a miracle. It's not going to happen. You can renew a passport <6 months before it's expiry. When you get the new Passport, you take the New Passport and the Old Passport to MOM/ICA to have your new passport particulars registered to your PEP. But no country allows you to be in their country without a valid travel document if you are a foreigner. Good Luck. And find a better attitude. For one who comes here with his hat in his hand, you sure are combative. :-|

For the record, as a PR holder, you still need to keep your passport valid. You don't, however, need to keep your REP valid, but if you leave the country without a valid REP, you WILL LOSE your PR. I know. I'm a PR and I went without a valid REP for 15 months once (but I never left Singapore and it was confirmed by the Immigration Officer when I did go an have it renewed the last time (with one of the last of the old 10 years REPs).

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Postby AngMoG » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 4:13 pm

^^This.

Most countries (SG being no exception, to my knowledge) require foreigners to have a valid passport while staying or living in their country. You can argue all you want, but it is ICA that makes the rules here, and afaik you have broken them.

Get your new passport as quickly as possible, and go to MOM to have your new passport details registered.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 4:25 pm

As an add on, you can use your PEP to enter and exit the country without your passport as long as your fingerprints are registered (which they will be if it's a laminated PEP card). However, as the PEP is machine readable, it will also instantly call up the ICAs records which will show your nationality and your foreign travel document's expiry date. If the date has expired, you will not be allowed back into the country on the PEP card without another valid travel document. You will have to get a new passport while outside of the country and come in on that new Passport and then go to ICA/MOM and have the PEP registered document.

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Postby Max Headroom » Sun, 17 Nov 2013 5:44 pm

OP, if there's one thing for which Singapore has a bee under their bonnet it's for overstayers. Of any kind at all.

I recall an immigration official telling me once that an PEP by itself is not a valid ID, because the PEP is validated by your passport. If your passport has expired or is missing or whatever, then effectively, you don't have a valid ID, regardless of PEP.

When it comes to immigration in Singapore, you err on the side of caution.

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Postby Wd40 » Mon, 18 Nov 2013 9:22 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As an add on, you can use your PEP to enter and exit the country without your passport as long as your fingerprints are registered (which they will be if it's a laminated PEP card). However, as the PEP is machine readable, it will also instantly call up the ICAs records which will show your nationality and your foreign travel document's expiry date. If the date has expired, you will not be allowed back into the country on the PEP card without another valid travel document. You will have to get a new passport while outside of the country and come in on that new Passport and then go to ICA/MOM and have the PEP registered document.


I thought it is the other way around. If you are an EP/PEP holder you can enter/exit the country with your passport and without the EP/PEP card. There is an automated immigration channel for residents(including EP holders) where you need to scan your passport. I have seen this while entering the country. But not sure while leaving Singapore.

But I fully agree with you. Its foolish to stay in a foreign country without a valid passport. Its just basic common sense. Many countries wont even allow you to enter with a passport that is less than 6 months to expiry. Passports can be renewed starting from 12 months to expiry and I would renew them well before its 6 months to expiry. You never know when you might need to leave the country(which is just a city) in hours notice.

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Postby ecureilx » Mon, 18 Nov 2013 9:23 am

AngMoG wrote:^^This.

Most countries (SG being no exception, to my knowledge) require foreigners to have a valid passport while staying or living in their country. ....


I may butt in and say, from what I know .. that applies to almost ALL countries, except a couple of countries that allow you to stay on Residency permit without passport .. once you have entered ..

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As an add on, you can use your PEP to enter and exit the country without your passport as long as your fingerprints are registered (which they will be if it's a laminated PEP card). However, as the PEP is machine readable, it will also instantly call up the ICAs records which will show your nationality and your foreign travel document's expiry date. If the date has expired, you will not be allowed back into the country on the PEP card without another valid travel document. You will have to get a new passport while outside of the country and come in on that new Passport and then go to ICA/MOM and have the PEP registered document.


then again, if you leave SG to go to MY, for example, don't you need a passport to enter Malaysia ? and even if the OP goes back to his country, I am going on a limb to say this: his country maybe special to allow a citizen to enter minus a valid passport .. he needs to get an EC to cover his tracks .. though they way he fights, I think his country may not need any document at all ..

The only case I know was a person overstayed his expired passport, though had a valid work pass, ran to embassy, got an EC (which is issued over the counter) and updated MOM, while waiting for the 2 to 3 weeks for the new passport to come ..

That may not be applicable to sergueis' case .. as it seems so far :)


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