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Citizenship application withdrawal

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newbunny
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Citizenship application withdrawal

Postby newbunny » Sat, 09 Nov 2013 11:23 pm

Hi All

I would like to get your advice on the following.

My profile:
Indian PR 13 years; wife PR 4 years; 2 kids (male)
income: 270k base (combined)

We applied for the citizenship application (over the counter at ICA- was done in a few hours) a few months ago. Now i am having a rethink but wanted to check what will happen if i withdraw the application? I have thought through this aspect at the point of application but now feel like an idiot for not doing so.

1. how to withdraw? (dont see my record online when i check on sing pass)
2. will it impact my REP renewal?
3. is it a better option to withdraw than to reject (i know approval is tough but want to think through the scenarios).

Thank you.
New Bunny

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PNGMK
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Re: Citizenship application withdrawal

Postby PNGMK » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 9:16 am

newbunny wrote:Hi All

I would like to get your advice on the following.

My profile:
Indian PR 13 years; wife PR 4 years; 2 kids (male)
income: 270k base (combined)

We applied for the citizenship application (over the counter at ICA- was done in a few hours) a few months ago. Now i am having a rethink but wanted to check what will happen if i withdraw the application? I have thought through this aspect at the point of application but now feel like an idiot for not doing so.

1. how to withdraw? (dont see my record online when i check on sing pass)
2. will it impact my REP renewal?
3. is it a better option to withdraw than to reject (i know approval is tough but want to think through the scenarios).

Thank you.
New Bunny


I personally would wait until you hear back on the success. If successful then write a letter in stating you have decided not to take up SC. As you have not sworn the oath yet, this should end the matter.

As for REP renewal I think the usual factors (i.e. income levels, REP policy at the time) will apply and your SC failure/decline status won't factor in too much.

Why did you decide to decline SC?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 11:28 am

It okay to come on board for a long term cruise (EP) and even signing on as crew (PR) on an already leaky ship but do you really want to buy shares (SC) of a potential sinking ship? At least that's the way I see it.

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Postby newbunny » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:16 pm

PNGMK,

thank you for your thoughts. My responses and questions below.

1. Actually, we are having second thoughts mainly beacuse of the following reason.
- wife and i are keen to settle here for long-term.
- my work may take me to places over the next decade (not 100% certain but possible). Also there is small possibility that i may have to re-locate to india take care of aging parents. In this scenario, i am not sure if i will have control over kids to come back to singapore when they turn 18 to complete NS (what if they say none of their friends are doing it and all r going to university?; reading through the forums here it appears total education time-lag is around 3 years between NS and non-NS route).
- for the record i am all for NS. But i am not sure if i can face upto my kids when they are older espeically if we migrate in a decade or so. also somewhere deep in my hear, we as parents are not sure if we are sacrificing their time for our benefit (surpisingly these thoughts didnt occur prior to us submitting the application).

2. The reason the thought of withdrawal of application came about was mainly beacuse i thought it may be wiser option than to reject after approval (if at all it comes through) especially if i want to try again for citizenship at a later time. what are the chances of getting citizenship if we reject once (zero?) and do the odds change if we withdraw application instead of rejecting post approval?

3. what we are worried about now is whether we shot ourselves in the foot by going through this process as our REPs are due for renewal shortly. As i understand from your response it shouldnt be a issue right?

Like they say, real emotions come up only when you have skin in the game, so having done the deed of submitting application, all weird thoughts are firing off my brain like there is no tomorrow. i do ask my myself what the Fu** I was doing rushing to apply in the first place. Strangely, the answer is simple - it never occured to me before that i may be putting my interests ahead of the kids (wife and i want to reitre here). Finally, one last but an important point. we are not trying to abuse the system in anyway.

New Bunny.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 12:57 pm

I think you got it all pretty right by yourself. I would call ICA and ask if you can do it and if yes, how to do it. Perhaps you get some more info from this conversation so you will have some more data before making the decision.

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Postby Beeroclock » Sun, 10 Nov 2013 8:47 pm

Catch 22, but if it were me I'd probably try to withdraw it. Of course you can (ironically) pray for rejection, but if the honest truth is that you made a mistake / changed your mind/ need more time to consider the important matter of citizenship, then perhaps ICA will accept this simple explanation (who knows they might even be happy for the file closed, work avoided). We are only human after all. In the success scenario I reckon rejecting SC might well close the door on that, but the ramifications of withdrawing seem a lot less, unless I'm missing something.

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Postby FaeLLe » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 5:24 pm

Your kids can hold dual citizenship till 18 and decide which citizenship they want to take.

Get your kids OCI (Overseas Citizenship of India) and they can choose to renounce Singapore citizenship when they become adults.

If your kids decide to remain Indian they can stay in India for 15 years as an OCI and become Indian Citizens again.

Trust me your kids will thank you for giving them a choice..... they might even prefer to serve NS for the benefits holding a Red Passport gives them.

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Postby newbunny » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 9:02 pm

FaeLLe

1. India doesn't allow dual citizenship. Period. Kids have to renounce india citizenship if they take up the Singapore citzenship.

2. As I understand it, OCI card (it is not citizenshipbut just a multi-entry visa with some added benefits) provides you an path to regain India citizenship at a later date. This should pose no problem for either myself or wifey if we need to renounce Singapore citizenship at a later date. For Kids however there is no way around not doing NS once you take up citizenship - they cant renounce it till they reach age of 21 and India will not issue one they they renounce foreign citizenship. Reading through the forum the procedures involved -leaving before kid is 11 etc - way too complicated and require precision (well.. look at it this way.. if i can sign up for something without thinking what are the odds that i will not trip here). Any way doesnt look like dual citizenship route is available/applicable for kids (a thought and Question: can kid announce intention to renounce citizenship at 13 while not holding onto another passport? this could possibly work - kid gets in-principle apporval for india passport at age 20/21-> renounces singapore passport age 21 -> regains india passport)

3. I understand the positves for NS. But the issue we are struggling with is whether should move the kids on a path (under current passport there are no obligations) where NS would be mandated/thrust upon them in future instead of it being made by choice. May be this is pure anxiety and fear of not be able to provide the best for the kids. Damn.. I have to decide this for myself but i feel like deer in the headlights. keep your comments coming pls.

4. I suppose this can help:
- any thoughts perspective on whether duration of NS will change in the next 10 years? i know anything can happen but my current reading the 'strenghtheing NS' initative doesnt suggest we are anywhere close to re-examining the length of service. Any one how how often is NS policy review done (once every 5 years?).

The clock is ticking. advices/perspectives please.

NewBunny.
Last edited by newbunny on Mon, 11 Nov 2013 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Wd40 » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 9:15 pm

I would suggest, don't withdraw your citizenship application.
See if it comes through.If it does come through, check with ICA if you could only convert yourself and your wife to SGns and leave your kids as PRs, see if you can come up with some great story. If they do not allow your kids to stay as PR and insist that whole family convert then, just reject it.

You said you want to retire here and given so much uncertainty about you and your kids, there is a good chance that 10 yrs from now, you may not even want to retire here.

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Postby newbunny » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 9:29 pm

Wd40 - kids are on visit pass. not PR (they are 2/3 years old; went along with minister's statment not to take up PR for kids unless we are committed to NS). We plan to go all-in or nothing. As i see it PR/citizen for second gen makes no difference as far as NS is concerned (on paper; though there are 'clever' strategies to avoid NS for second-gen PR).

So it's either we end up staying on PR status for a few years more, enjoy our cricket, and see where life takes us (yes we want to retire here for ourselves but can't let it impact kids ability to gain PR/citizenship in future by stretching our welcome) or we overcome the guilt, feel confident that we made right choice for the kids, and start bending it like Beckham.

Anyways, for what's it worth, my wife seems keen and wants to wait for outcome first. I am the anxious one here.

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Postby Wd40 » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:14 pm

Hmm.. interesting. So did you apply Citizenship for whole family? I wonder if your kids will be allowed to move directly from LTSVP to Citizens.

Now I really doubt whether your citizenship result will be successful.

In any case my earlier statement still holds true, see if you can convert just yourselves to citizens and let your kids remain on LTSVPs.

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Postby newbunny » Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:05 pm

Wd40. Yes, applied for whole family as I was aware that's the way it works. We have better odds with ToTo otherwise, isnt't it?

1. Had I already bitten the bullet on PR for kids, I presume there is no need for re-think now on citizenship app - the NS debate would have been settled with PR.

2. Taking kids via route PR and then citizenship route would be weird policy as it is akin to asking PRs to signup for NS liabiltities for kids with no automatic/guaranteed path for citizenship benefits. Wonder how much weight one would attach to this aspect though.

3. There is no way we'll take up citizenship while leaving kids out. It's all or nothing as far as i am concerned. May be we can use this suggestion as an opt-out strategy if we decide to pull out after waiting for their decision.

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Postby FaeLLe » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 4:39 pm

newbunny wrote:FaeLLe

1. India doesn't allow dual citizenship. Period. Kids have to renounce india citizenship if they take up the Singapore citzenship.

2. As I understand it, OCI card (it is not citizenshipbut just a multi-entry visa with some added benefits) provides you an path to regain India citizenship at a later date. This should pose no problem for either myself or wifey if we need to renounce Singapore citizenship at a later date. For Kids however there is no way around not doing NS once you take up citizenship - they cant renounce it till they reach age of 21 and India will not issue one they they renounce foreign citizenship. Reading through the forum the procedures involved -leaving before kid is 11 etc - way too complicated and require precision (well.. look at it this way.. if i can sign up for something without thinking what are the odds that i will not trip here). Any way doesnt look like dual citizenship route is available/applicable for kids (a thought and Question: can kid announce intention to renounce citizenship at 13 while not holding onto another passport? this could possibly work - kid gets in-principle apporval for india passport at age 20/21-> renounces singapore passport age 21 -> regains india passport)

.


Frankly mate you just need to bite the bullet..... cant have best of both worlds.

Who knows how the situation might change in the future.
You might choose to remain but have no option to become Singaporean or renew PR.

Even if you remain in Singapore and keep your PR your kids might hate you for not taking PR / Citizenship for them and making them foreigners in the nation they grew up in.

What I would in your place is proceed with the Citizenship application unless I have confirmed or highly probably alternative plans.....

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 6:52 pm

Damn if you do, damn if you don't eh OP?
From an old man that had been there and done that, you have two option

1. If India provides regaining Indian citizenship at a later date for the child to reclaim it back after 21 then stay the course and wait for SC, reapply if child wants to "balik Kampong"

2. Screw India Citizenship and stay with original plan since your kids has been living here since young , they are more Singaporean than Indian National/ Friends, family and maybe their future partners will be here too.
You and wife likes here too hence why bother?

From our experience , not a moment of regrets ditching SC for foreign as we have been living overseas for many years hence there was no love lost between us and Singapore.

NS procedure is a legal time bomb and minefield which is meant to deter and hinder once intention is set but if you persevere you will reach your destination.

Words from the mail man is "once you decide, thick or thin stick like glue"
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby newbunny » Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:01 pm

Thank you Wd40 and MS. Fair points. funny never thought kids could be angry one day if we didnt sign them on for PR/citizenship :)

I'll keep the process going on for now and see where my emotions take me in the next few weeks as the gravity of the decision sinks in. Please do share any additional insights/perspectives. Shall update on my end shortly.


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