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LETTER FROM SINGAPORE MINDEF FREAKING OUT MY WIFE

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:01 am

CompassROSE wrote:
Woah, this is like out-of-the blue thingy!

Thought I have finished my 'homework' regarding this issue - I have already contacted NS via the email given on the MINDEF letter.
An auto reply with a reference came back that the issue will be reviewed
n an answer will be given.

Believe me, I was very polite in the letter - do no want to 'screw up' any
officers due to my ignorance.

To clarify the age issue. My son is borned on August 17, 1996. The kid just turned 17th just a couple of months back.

The MINDEF LETTER has a dateline on the registration : it is between October 16. 2013 - November 9, 2013.

I don't see any way out of the situation either based on what MS has pointed out. You have two alternatives, the best one is doing his NS and paying any fine, depending on what your conversation with MINDEF produces.

I was hoping, due to the young age (9 months) and the fact that your wife has already given up her citizenship, that they might see the light. Apparently not. But let's see what they say.


quote: "3. The fact that ICA manage to send a letter to your US address means they know where the child is. " -

I was WONDERING how in the world did the MINDEF LETTER came to us. All my Singapore-in-laws did not know about this. We have called them to find out.

By the way, please clarify the following terms, you hv been using :

a. ICA
b. Gahmen

What's that?????

Quote: "2. You did not state your intention to renounce his SG citizenship when he turn 13 nor did you inform ICA before that. " -

How to contact this ICA?? at 13?? and not 21 years of age???

That's the problem. Sadly, it's easily overlooked due to not being notified at birth. However, you wife should have known about his NS liabilities when he was born (unless your wife is Malay - then it's possible she wouldn't have known as most Malay males were exempted from NS in the early years). They do not post a guideline book for the reason as they don't want their citizens to be able to find easy ways out of their obligations.

Come on, there must be a HANDBOOK FOR DUMMIES regarding dual citizenship !

Sadly, we've only been up and running for around 8 years. We are just about the closest thing you will find to the "Dummies" book of how to do it and it's still a work in progress.

Feedbacks please.


Keep us posted as soon as you receive some further correspondence from MINDEF or the CMPB (Central Manpower Board)
Last edited by sundaymorningstaple on Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:02 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:"U.S. citizens are subject to loss of citizenship if they perform certain specified acts voluntarily and with the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship"


As with a lot of things in US law though, your statement in blue is open to very different interpretations. It's not a very well tested law, and results will vary on a case by case basis.

Just look at the first of seven ways:

http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship ... p_778.html
obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon one's own application after the age of 18 (Sec. 349 (a) (1) INA);


Lots and lots of Americans take up dual citizenship with other nations that allow it (not SG), and never lose their American citizenship. But the US keeps this as a trump card to use against you if they see fit. As long as you stay under the radar and pay your taxes, you're probably fine. But they COULD kick you out.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:07 am

Taking up another citizenship (naturalization) is different that gaining citizenship by birth. Two entirely different sets of criteria. Most of what we have here is via the latter with the birth of children to mixed nationality parents. You have the same scenario I believe?

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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:40 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Taking up another citizenship (naturalization) is different that gaining citizenship by birth. Two entirely different sets of criteria. Most of what we have here is via the latter with the birth of children to mixed nationality parents. You have the same scenario I believe?


Right, I was just illustrating it as a grey area in American law. I also know many Americans who became naturalized "something else" and kept both. If you google around, you find sites telling you anything from 'you're going to jail' to 'no problem at all'.

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Re: Comments by MScientist

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 4:08 pm

CompassROSE wrote:"
The MINDEF LETTER has a dateline on the registration : it is between October 16. 2013 - November 9, 2013.

quote: "3. The fact that ICA manage to send a letter to your US address means they know where the child is. " -

I was WONDERING how in the world did the MINDEF LETTER came to us. All my Singapore-in-laws did not know about this. We have called them to find out.

Quote: "2. You did not state your intention to renounce his SG citizenship when he turn 13 nor did you inform ICA before that. " -

How to contact this ICA?? at 13?? and not 21 years of age???

Come on, there must be a HANDBOOK FOR DUMMIES regarding dual citizenship !

Feedbacks please.


To answer your questions

The Letter that you received is to inform you that your son need to register for NS for pre NS medical check up. Failing to comply means defaulter on NS. But that does not mean he is going straight to NS as every cohort of recruits will be based on when they are leaving school after completing A level, diploma whatever except tertiary education which requires the child to complete his NS before doing his tertiary be it locally or overseas.
Chances almost 95% sure that they will reject your mitigation hence your son still needs to serve NS. Period. This is a one way street as he has passed the age of 5, 11 ,13 and 16 to mitigate for renouncing his SG citizenship
At this point of time please do not inform MINDEF about your second son .
ICA can trace your overseas address by the fact when your family left for US , your wife may have informed ICA about your overseas address as change of address must be submitted to ICA within 5 days when you moved house be it locally or overseas or when she renewed her SG PP.
Mindef may come to your in-law home and seek the whereabout of your son.
This age 13 timeline all came about after the piano man debacle. It used to be at 16 1/2.
You are lucky/unlucky as I have gone thru these fighting tooth and nail for my sons without any info in front of me to begin with.. At least you are prepared for what may come after this with all the infos you can gather here. If it is at an earlier age I can literally hand hold you and avoid all the minefield. Unfortunately this is not so for your case.
MINDEF / CMPB replies are pretty SOP.
There is not much you can do but contemplate your next course of action as the future is grim.
As I said before if you think that SG is not worth fighting for then discuss with your son. If he decides to serve NS at least he has a chance to gain employment in SG. If you / he decide otherwise then saves all the aggro and worries and not step back to SG EVER..
The way I look at it is Damn if you do and Damn if you don't.
Common sense is not common at all especially when you are dealing with MINDEF.
I am not here to screw your son's future but I am telling you what many has gone thru including myself and provide your enough infos to make informed decision.
Please discuss this with your son on his predicament

The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 4:34 pm

ON separate issue, if you are an Ozzie, you have legal right to reclaim your Oz citizenship after renouncing it for the purpose of serving NS in Singapore.
These can be done.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby PNGMK » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 4:42 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:ON separate issue, if you are an Ozzie, you have legal right to reclaim your Oz citizenship after renouncing it for the purpose of serving NS in Singapore.
These can be done.


+1 - a lot of citizenships are 'inalienable' and can be reclaimed.

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Postby PNGMK » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 5:02 pm

CompassRose - I feel for you. This is an extraordinarily difficult situation. I've worked through this many years ago and decided my son WILL do NS - even if he is 'just' a fireman (although looking at those Aussie heroes - phuck). I've told him this from the get go - there's no way out of this. He has no choice - EVEN if we leave Singapore he will have to return. I'm happy for him to defer it until his tertiary study is done if he is bright enough to do a 3/5 degree but I'd rather he just did it ASAP. I suspect in 6 years the NS might be slightly shorter - I think Singapore is waking up to just how badly they're crippling their male work force academically and career wise by asking for a 2 year commitment.

I don't think he will be used a canon fodder or die like my friend George Swartzendruber did - shot down by an Iraqi AFTER the cease fire in GW1.

http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM87 ... m_Adair_OK

Why do I do this? Because this is the Asian Century and I don't want to close a door for my son that should stay open.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 5:17 pm

^^This.

Exactly, what I foresaw 20 odd years ago. Therefore, from an early age, I talked to my son about doing NS and why it was necessary. As he grew older, he started to understand more. He also has decided that he doesn't want to burn any bridges, which when you think about it, is a pretty wise move in today's around the world in 48 hours, shrunken ball of dirt floating in space. Both MS and myself took different routes, but in both cases, we've studied our options or lack of options and made plans well in advance to accomplish the necessary required.

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Postby CompassROSE » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 10:55 pm

"Common sense is not common at all especially when you are dealing with MINDEF. " - MS.

I seriously hope u r wrong on this one, MSCIENTIST!

It is only our 1st born who was born in Singapore. Yep, over the weekend, we have our heart-to heart with the kid. He is gungho about it. Because as all 'man-child' they're all game for anything.

I will post the latest to ya'll on our situation when we hv some concrete answers from MINDEF.

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Postby CompassROSE » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:03 pm

"Keep us posted as soon as you receive some further correspondence from MINDEF or the CMPB (Central Manpower Board) ' - SMS


Sure will!

Thx again for everyone's input.

I will always check in to see any new information which I could use for our situation.

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Postby CompassROSE » Mon, 21 Oct 2013 11:11 pm

My wife is Chinese.

For some reason, she n' my Singapore-in-laws have the belief that age 21 is the time for our son to choose his citizenship. As for NS, they hv the belief that since he is out of Singapore when he is 9mths old - he is not liable to serve.

Of course, NOW, - I know that they are WRONG.

Well, as mentioned b4, will ya'll posted.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Tue, 22 Oct 2013 1:39 am

zzm9980 wrote:Lots and lots of Americans take up dual citizenship with other nations that allow it (not SG), and never lose their American citizenship. But the US keeps this as a trump card to use against you if they see fit. As long as you stay under the radar and pay your taxes, you're probably fine. But they COULD kick you out.


This is not correct. Dual citizenship is accepted by the United States and has been affirmed by a number of pieces of legislation and Supreme Court rulings. Even I, a naturalized US citizen, cannot have my US citizenship revoked just because I am also a citizen of other countries.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html
Last edited by Strong Eagle on Tue, 22 Oct 2013 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby PNGMK » Tue, 22 Oct 2013 8:23 am

CompassROSE wrote:My wife is Chinese.

For some reason, she n' my Singapore-in-laws have the belief that age 21 is the time for our son to choose his citizenship. As for NS, they hv the belief that since he is out of Singapore when he is 9mths old - he is not liable to serve.

Of course, NOW, - I know that they are WRONG.

Well, as mentioned b4, will ya'll posted.


Yeah I see this a lot - people here relying on second or third hand information rather than going to the source itself.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 22 Oct 2013 2:08 pm

CompassROSE wrote:"Common sense is not common at all especially when you are dealing with MINDEF. " - MS.

I seriously hope u r wrong on this one, MSCIENTIST!

It is only our 1st born who was born in Singapore. Yep, over the weekend, we have our heart-to heart with the kid. He is gungho about it. Because as all 'man-child' they're all game for anything.

I will post the latest to ya'll on our situation when we hv some concrete answers from MINDEF.


I pray that I am wrong , mate !!
I chose the other route as SMS pointed for a number of reasons.
1. My boys (Adults now) were late bloomers and struggling with SG MOE syllabus. Hence we knew from the onset entering into NUS will be a challenge. Moreover back then there was only University which made it harder
2. We search and found OZ do provide tertiary and back then as long as you are a PR and living there , you can enter a Uni and all tertiary fees was interest free. Not now though. Even that you are looking at AUD50K for double major for a five year study.
3. When my children "bloom" and the interest in academic grew, they wanted con joint and double majors at one go. Hard to get it here whereby in OZ you can mix and match to you delight.
4. When they turned 21 the choice to renounce OZ or SG came to light. By then the world were at their palms. My two boys were offered bursary and grant to further their studies in US and UK respectively. One has completed his PHD in Neuron Bio Science and the other is finishing his Second Master in Macro Economics of Accounting for whatever that means
5. They understood the choice they made and there were no regrets. This is important.
6. We as parents provide them information to make the informed decisions and did our homework so that they do not face problems in the future

Decide whatever you think is best for your family . More importantly for the child. Do the things that you have to do but toe the line and make sure you cover all bases as the child future is at stake
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!


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