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How to confirm and then renounce Singapore citizenship?

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bman2
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How to confirm and then renounce Singapore citizenship?

Postby bman2 » Wed, 28 Aug 2013 10:29 am

Hello and thanks for your advice.

I am a 23 year old male born in Singapore. My parents were both Singaporean. We lived in Singapore for 4 years. My father used to beat me and my mother. One day she told me we are leaving and we went to the airport and flew to Australia.

We never went back to Singapore, and she never talked about it. I never saw my father again. When growing up I thought that we had always been Australians.

When I was 17 I met a British girl in Australia, who I later married and we moved to the UK. After a while I became a British citizen.

2 things recently happened which led me to this forum amongst others.

1) My wife gave birth and I have been trying to obtain Australian citizenship by descent for our son. On the form I put that I am British and Australian. Later, the high commission called me and informed me that actually I had been naturalised as Australian, not by birth. And then they said I was Singaporean before and am I still Singaporean? I said, shortly after I submitted the form, something happened which led me to wonder the same thing...


2) What happened was that sadly my mum passed away in an accident. When I was going through her belongings I found her old Singapore passport, and a statutory declaration saying that I was born on XX date in Singapore and that A and B are my parents, signed by my mum on my 7th birthday, and also her certificate of Australian citizenship saying that citizenship was acquired on XX date (which is very near to my 7th birthday). I have never seen a birth certificate for myself, which presumably would have been issued by Singapore - and I have never needed to show one, not even for UK immigration, so I have never seen that statutory declaration either until recently.

The high commission said that they want proof that I either am, or am no longer, a Singaporean. Apparently, on another forum, if I apply for him inside Australia they won't ask for that, so I could try that.

However, the problem is after doing a lot of reading, I discovered that I also have an NS obligation. As my wife is a Hong Kong permanent resident, we have always transitted through HKG on our trips between the UK and Australia...

So -

1. How do I check whether I am a Singapore citizen? Do I go to the Singapore embassy and just ask them to look me up? However, that will just serve to alert them to my existence when I may be under the radar at this point.

2. On the other hand, it looks like I fulfill all the requirements for renouncing Singapore citizenship (assuming that I have it) according to this forum, except that I didn't inform the government of the intention to renounce at the age of 13. It is hardly my fault so can they disregard this?

3. Is my son also Singaporean? And just out of interest, if he is not automatically Singaporean, but he later decided that he wants to live there, could he claim the citizenship and go and do NS while I never set foot on that island again?

Thanks once again.

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Postby PNGMK » Wed, 28 Aug 2013 6:09 pm

I think that unless a formal revocation of citizenship has been made in Singapore you are still a Singapore citizen and NS obligations hold.

MS is probably the best for this.

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Postby bman2 » Wed, 28 Aug 2013 8:57 pm

PNGMK wrote:MS is probably the best for this.


What is MS?

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 28 Aug 2013 9:04 pm

Who. Mad Scientist.

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Re: How to confirm and then renounce Singapore citizenship?

Postby AngMoG » Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:07 am

bman,

Tricky situation indeed. I think PNGMK is right, this is one for MS - one of the senior members of this forum, who knows most about these legal matters.

I don't think there is such a thing as "below the radar" in these matters, so you may as well ask the Singapore embassy. It will also be good to renounce the citizenship if you still have it, seeing also as SG does not allow dual citizenship (much less triple). In the meantime, maybe continue transiting via HK ;)

If you did not renounce your citizenship in time, NS obligations may still hold, which would probably make it difficult for you to obtain employment visa here in Singapore if the opportunity ever arises. I know it is not your fault, but that mostly does not matter when it comes to legal questions. You may need to ask MinDef about that after clarifying with the SG embassy.

bman2 wrote:1. How do I check whether I am a Singapore citizen? Do I go to the Singapore embassy and just ask them to look me up? However, that will just serve to alert them to my existence when I may be under the radar at this point.

2. On the other hand, it looks like I fulfill all the requirements for renouncing Singapore citizenship (assuming that I have it) according to this forum, except that I didn't inform the government of the intention to renounce at the age of 13. It is hardly my fault so can they disregard this?

3. Is my son also Singaporean? And just out of interest, if he is not automatically Singaporean, but he later decided that he wants to live there, could he claim the citizenship and go and do NS while I never set foot on that island again?

Thanks once again.

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Postby katbh » Thu, 29 Aug 2013 3:55 pm

You are an Australian Citizen and as such dual citizenship should mean your Singaporean Citizenship would be in jeopardy anyway. But unless Singapore ask you to renounce Australian Citizenship, you are still Singaporean and I assume you would have had a singapore passport when you left for Australia.
If you come in and out of Singapore on and Australian passport, it is unlikely that you would be pulled up as they would not have a NRIC for you and it is likely your original Australian Passport would have been renewed and you would have a new passport number.
As to being Singaporean and the benefits of this, you can exercise it or as you say 'stay under the radar' on an Australian Passport. Yes, you would still be liable for NS.
If you have a son, yes, he can seek SIngaporean Citizenship but to be honest, it would be a bit silly if he has Australian and British Citizenship. He would have to give them up and the British passport is a good one as it means he can work anywhere in Europe and the Australian passport can be held at the same time.
He would not automatically be Singaporean so would not have Singaporean liability for NS. He could apply to be PR and could have a good go at it on the basis of his grandparents being Singaporean.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 29 Aug 2013 4:18 pm

One thing that comes to mind is the fact that even though he never gained an NRIC, He was and currently still is a Singapore Citizen. Unless proper protocols were followed, there is no way he can get out of it OR out from under it. As a Singaporean male, by birth, he would be automatically entered in the relevant databases (of which all are now linked) as having been born a citizen, male, eligible for NS (Mindef would have him on their radar as they are linked into the database) as there has be no record of death filed and no record of doing NS either. Therefore, in all probability, he will be listed as a deserter (through no fault of his own, but nonetheless). Now, assuming his passport shows him as his place of birth as Singapore, and IF he is Asian, this will probably flag an alert Immigration Officer to run his name through the database to ensure there are no flags on the individual before allowing him through immigration. If there is a flag, they will still let him in, but as soon as he is on the other side of the counter he will be picked up and held for desertion.

My suggestion is that he contacts Mindef / Central Manpower Board and tries to sort it out before stepping foot on Singapore soil for his own safety. He might have to go to M'sia and wait there and have his rellies visit him in JB. He might be able to negotiate a fine only as was done with Mervin Tan (The Piano Man who went to the UK many years ago).

katbh,

I am a 23 year old male born in Singapore. My parents were both Singaporean. We lived in Singapore for 4 years.


He most surely is a Singapore Citizen by birth which will take precedence over all other Citizenships and until he finds a way to legally renounce it, he will remain at risk for both desertion and holding multiple citizenships in violation of Singapore law which applies before all others.

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Postby bman2 » Fri, 30 Aug 2013 1:19 am

Thanks for your replies.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Now, assuming his passport shows him as his place of birth as Singapore, and IF he is Asian...

He might have to go to M'sia and wait there and have his rellies visit him in JB. He might be able to negotiate a fine only as was done with Mervin Tan (The Piano Man who went to the UK many years ago).


It's funny you said that, because my mother was Eurasian and I also look mixed Chinese/white. Why is the IF in capitals?

Apart from my father's family, who I have no interest in contacting, there are no rellies in Singapore, and there are so many other places in the world to visit, so I see no point in paying any fine.

I guess I could change my name (I wonder why my mum never changed my surname to hers, which is an English surname, like most Anglo-Saxon single parents here in the UK / Australia) but I don't think I can be bothered unless there is another good reason to do it.

katbh wrote:He could apply to be PR and could have a good go at it on the basis of his grandparents being Singaporean.


That's interesting, but I would need to obtain proof of being Singaporean from the embassy first, and I wonder if any of this would count against him. Reading other forums looks like people just get denied for any reason. When getting ILR in the UK you are only denied soundly based on law, or if the case officer makes a mistake which you can appeal against. My son is only 3/8ths Chinese btw.

Anyway, sundaymorningstaple seems very knowledgeable from his posts on this forum. I am sure it is better to be safe than sorry, but I would just like to ask whether the assertion that all the databases are linked and Mindef is looking for me is based on personal experience or is just an assumption?

Will await any further information from the Mad Scientist.

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Re: How to confirm and then renounce Singapore citizenship?

Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 30 Aug 2013 2:34 am

bman2 wrote:2 things recently happened which led me to this forum amongst others.

1) My wife gave birth and I have been trying to obtain Australian citizenship by descent for our son. On the form I put that I am British and Australian. Later, the high commission called me and informed me that actually I had been naturalised as Australian, not by birth. And then they said I was Singaporean before and am I still Singaporean? I said, shortly after I submitted the form, something happened which led me to wonder the same thing...

Which High Commission are you referring to ?
If you are an Ozzie and Pomps but naturalised manner then you are good to go. The high comm has diddly squat to Hold your son being an Ozzie. No grounds at all.
Yes, the high comm will inform SG about you that is about all since this has been happening since man found a cave.


2) a statutory declaration saying that I was born on XX date in Singapore and that A and B are my parents, signed by my mum on my 7th birthday, and also her certificate of Australian citizenship saying that citizenship was acquired on XX date (which is very near to my 7th birthday). I have never seen a birth certificate for myself, which presumably would have been issued by Singapore - and I have never needed to show one, not even for UK immigration, so I have never seen that statutory declaration either until recently.

You are a Singaporean period until you renounce your SG citizenship

The high commission said that they want proof that I either am, or am no longer, a Singaporean. Apparently, on another forum, if I apply for him inside Australia they won't ask for that, so I could try that.

Why does the OZ high comm wants this proof and on what grounds.
Come back to Oz and do it here in Canberra



So -

1. How do I check whether I am a Singapore citizen? Do I go to the Singapore embassy and just ask them to look me up? However, that will just serve to alert them to my existence when I may be under the radar at this point.

On your BC there is a number on the right hand top corner. This can be used to check with Citizen Advise Bureau. You have to get a local to check for you if you are still in existence. Chances are YES

2. On the other hand, it looks like I fulfill all the requirements for renouncing Singapore citizenship (assuming that I have it) according to this forum, except that I didn't inform the government of the intention to renounce at the age of 13. It is hardly my fault so can they disregard this?

If you do not have any ties here, SCREW IT. The hassle of renouncing will be a challenge and all application to renounce is based on its INDIVIDUAL MERIT. No two application is the same. Though I normally got it right 95%.
Moreover you are only 23, if you apply to renounce, you might have to serve NS then you are allowed to renounce. Whatever grounds you mitigate may not be accepted by MINDEF


3. Is my son also Singaporean? And just out of interest, if he is not automatically Singaporean, but he later decided that he wants to live there, could he claim the citizenship and go and do NS while I never set foot on that island again?

Your son is NOT a SGer. To be one you can apply under Parent of SG Descent. No one has done this and this application period only up to 7 years from the date of birth. You can try if your son chose but I do not want to take a bet

On your question about database. All agencies are linked under ONE metadata but no they are not going to look for you as your are not a POI

Thanks once again.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby bman2 » Sat, 31 Aug 2013 12:59 am

Thanks for your reply. Yes, the Oz High Comm, on the Strand in London wants the extra information.

http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/118.pdf

Application for Australian citizenship by descent

Page 4: one of the required documents is "Evidence of other citizenships held by your Australian citizen parent", I gave British, they also want Singapore - which as I said I have no evidence at all

We can bring him to Australia on his British passport and apply in-country so not too worried about it yet.

On your BC there is a number on the right hand top corner.


OK, how do I find out this number? As I said, I don't have any birth certificate from Singapore (presumably I used to have one). Can they look up from name and date of birth? (Actually, I don't even know whether my current passport name is the same name I was born with in Singapore, it's certainly possible that my mum wrote some random name on her declaration since it is free text. The way she used to call me is different from my passport name.)

Moreover you are only 23, if you apply to renounce, you might have to serve NS then you are allowed to renounce. Whatever grounds you mitigate may not be accepted by MINDEF

Though I normally got it right 95%.


Oh, so you think if I wait until 50 years old I will have higher chance of renouncing? I mean I don't really care, but now I am really paranoid about my plane getting diverted to Singapore due to emergency. I guess I won't fly from HKG to Perth any more, LOL. My mum's family (who are the only ties to Singapore) have all left and moved to Brisbane anyway.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 31 Aug 2013 12:47 pm

Using your mum's name, go to CAB ICA at Kallang.
You can trace under birth and death registration and her next of kin. This is much cheaper than using a lawyer. All you need is the extract for her children' name/s. Then on you can find your own BC etc.....

Even if you reach 50 that liability still hangs over your head. If there is no need or reason to visit SG then forget about it.
If you think you want to do the right thing then gather all docs, chronology of events i.e migration date etc . Wait till 30ish then do it as chances of doing NS is lower compare to now at 23. Fine you will which ranges from $5K to $10K jail time hardly. NS time possible but remote as you are already a citizen of OZ and UK.
Make sure you declare only yourself and the wife. Do not inform them about your children when you go for the interview at Mindef or CMPB

Do not do it at the Embassy as alot of infos are being shared around with other countries.
M
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Postby bman2 » Sun, 01 Sep 2013 1:40 am

Mad Scientist wrote:Do not do it at the Embassy as alot of infos are being shared around with other countries.


OK thanks. Can you clarify this statement? Who is SG embassy going to share information with and what are the consequences?

I checked all my UK immigration applications and even if I knew I was Singaporean I would not have needed to tell them. So they can't accuse me of deception or withholding information.

For Australia, I was 7 years old so they will not hold it against me (unlike SG :roll: )

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 01 Sep 2013 2:08 am

You are too naive in this aspect of intelligence and immigration risk profiling by many countries. I had many encounters of SGers whom held dual citizenship being caught at SG border and being told to renounce one or the other and at the same time either being ticked off or fined for that matter. After some soul searching, they realised had renewed their SG PP at the SG overseas embassy. I had come across of SGers whom renounced foreign PP at 21 , served the NS but tried to regain his SG PP by applying at their foreign embassy in SG after that. Got caught by ICA and the rest is history. These are just two examples. How in the world did ICA knows unless the officers at the embassy passed this infos to ICA.
Doing the PP at home country reduces the risk of this mishap..
You can say whatever you like with the authorities but ignorance is not going to get you far with them. Trust me, it ain't gonna work.
Here is an example, you hide a bag of heroin for someone in your luggage bag and you got caught at the border and pretend it is not yours or for one reason or another to the officer, yeah right ?
Remember Michelle Colby, Where is she now > Still insist she is innocent but still in jail for more than 10 years now. Even Rudd or Gillard cannot do one damn thing.
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Postby PNGMK » Sun, 01 Sep 2013 8:27 am

MS is right about the amount of information shared.

Everytime I enter the USA they want to talk to me about an Australian PP I lost in in 1996!


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