Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implications?

E-Gene · Post by **E-Gene** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 6:27 pm

What I do for work, whether I'm working or not, where I work has nothing to do with the question that I'm asking. That's why I didn't feel the need to give out anymore informationthen I needed to. For the question that I was asking, I've given enough of a context for it, have I not? How does what I'm doing have to do with the question I'm asking.

The precise issue here is that I DON'T want to abuse the system, and that's why I'm asking these questions. I love Singapore and I'm all for NS and have no issues with my son doing it, if we choose to return to Singapore permanently. But at this point I want to keep his options open, thus I'm asking the questions that I'm asking. I'm trying to make the best decision I can with as my information that I can get.

The problem here is that while this is a forum, you have chosen to assume various things about me and my intentions. A forum is a place where people discuss issues, or is this forum different from others. I've been a moderator for various forums as well before and I remember that my job was to facilitate discussion and not shut them down by calling new users names.

Post by **PNGMK** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 7:40 pm

E-Gene wrote:What I do for work, whether I'm working or not, where I work has nothing to do with the question that I'm asking. That's why I didn't feel the need to give out anymore informationthen I needed to. For the question that I was asking, I've given enough of a context for it, have I not? How does what I'm doing have to do with the question I'm asking.

The precise issue here is that I DON'T want to abuse the system, and that's why I'm asking these questions. I love Singapore and I'm all for NS and have no issues with my son doing it, if we choose to return to Singapore permanently. But at this point I want to keep his options open, thus I'm asking the questions that I'm asking. I'm trying to make the best decision I can with as my information that I can get.

The problem here is that while this is a forum, you have chosen to assume various things about me and my intentions. A forum is a place where people discuss issues, or is this forum different from others. I've been a moderator for various forums as well before and I remember that my job was to facilitate discussion and not shut them down by calling new users names.

Too many SC's and PR's are trying to get their sons through with 'both' options - there really isn't such a thing. You're either with Singapore or not at all. Just ask Keith Steele - all three of his sons deeply resent him cutting off their ability to return to Singapore and work - the MOM actually - not ICA - is the one group that can mess this up for your son if you're not careful.

AngMoG · Post by **AngMoG** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 8:53 pm

Let me summarize that it sounds like you want the best of both worlds, for yourself and your son. Which, in a lot of situations, is fair enough but can easily turn into "having the cake and eat it too".

The problem here is, that the SG gov does not see this as an opportunity they want to give to citizens, or even to PRs. From their point of view, your son would be taking advantage of the benefits that being an SC offers (living here in general, cheaper schooling, general state support, etc.) without also fulfilling his obligations (doing NS). It does not matter if this is how you see it or not, they do.

Bottom line is this - either your son does NS, or he will most likely not be able to work in SG ever. Actually, from what I have read, it would seem it does not even matter if he never lives in SG, or if he renounces his citizenship now. At this point in time, his choice has already been made for him - both by yourself and by the SG gov policies.

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 9:01 pm

If he had but done a little research on here, he would already known and seen the threads to which you are alluding to. Between myself early on and Mad Scientist in recent years, who's knowledge here is formidable AND accurate, there are ample discussions on those who have managed it, and those who have failed and are paying the price. These threads go back 8 years here.

Not only that, he has a reading comprehension problem as well, I didn't see anybody call him names, including myself, so something must have touched a nerve and hit pretty close to home. He might have been a moderator on other boards, but not on this one, and I guess, as he didn't have any foresight in doing any research on the topic here, he can be forgiven thinking he's been there and done that.

If MS wants to touch it, he's welcome to it.

E-Gene · Post by **E-Gene** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:23 pm

Thanks to everyone here for sharing your thoughts. I'm not sure why I'm being targeted by sundaymorningstaple because I really just came on to ask some questions. I have read previous threads about NS, but no one really mentioned the specifics about Primary school education, seeing that that's under the magic "11 year old" number, so I just wanted to clarify.

sundaymorningstaple. You called me an abuser and now you say that I've got a reading comprehension problem. This is after all your forum and you are the senior here, so I guess as a newbie, I didn't realise that I couldn't ask questions. I really don't appreciate it. You didn't hit a nerve that was close to home. Unless there are people out there that like to be called "abusers"?

Everyone's got reasons for doing what they are doing, let it be wanting their sons to do NS or not, so let's not judge them. You don't know the exact reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing. If there isn't a way that he can study here and not do NS later, just tell me that. Don't call me an abuser.

You obviously see things a little tainted because you've "seen it all" by being on this forum a long time. but that's why I came here to ask the question, seeing that there are knowledgeable people here like yourself.

I'm not sure that this discussion is useful anymore. Thanks anyway for setting me straight about how I should participate in this forum in the future.

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:50 pm

From my second post.....

"You are starting to sound like an abuser to me"

And after your reply, In my third post......

"you still sound like you are trying to abuse the system."

Where, pray tell, did I call you an Abuser.

And that is why I said you have a reading comprehension problem. I deliberately did NOT call you an abuser but I did let you know you were starting to sound like one. Big difference. And no, it's not my forum.

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 11:59 pm

As he is a Singapore citizen, you will need to get special permission to put him into an International School based on the fact that he will be returning to Australia. That should see you clear to keeping him in school and also setting the stage for exiting before the age of 13. I don't know if that will save him by showing intention of leaving before the age of 13 or not. By putting him into a local school, then you are showing the intention of staying in Singapore. Should you opt out before the age of 13, you will probably be saddled with a bond to remove him as unless both of you have given up your citizenship and divested yourself of property here, etc., it will appear that you are leaving a back door open....... I cannot say anymore. What I suggest is you call Mindef and MOE and see what they say.

E-Gene · Post by **E-Gene** » Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:01 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As he is a Singapore citizen, you will need to get special permission to put him into an International School based on the fact that he will be returning to Australia. That should see you clear to keeping him in school and also setting the stage for exiting before the age of 13. I don't know if that will save him by showing intention of leaving before the age of 13 or not. By putting him into a local school, then you are showing the intention of staying in Singapore. Should you opt out before the age of 13, you will probably be saddled with a bond to remove him as unless both of you have given up your citizenship and divested yourself of property here, etc., it will appear that you are leaving a back door open....... I cannot say anymore. What I suggest is you call Mindef and MOE and see what they say.

Thanks.

Mi Amigo · Post by **Mi Amigo** » Thu, 18 Jul 2013 8:47 am

Exhibit A - an example of how this kind of thing can unravel with serious consequences...

http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic96359.html

Post by **PNGMK** » Thu, 18 Jul 2013 1:10 pm

OP. I'm an AC with a AC/SC son. Many years ago I was offered a good job and returned to Singapore after a long period. I have spent the 7 years since then making sure my son understands he will have to do NS. I don't see any disadvantage in doing NS but I see a lot or risk in him not completing NS. There is no doubt in my mind that the benefits of having done NS are going to become broader in the future (preferential HDB flat selection, subsidized loans) but more importantly him having done his NS means he will always have both doors open.

Another consideration you need to keep in mind is that if you and your wife leave Australia for a long period of time (5 years) your PR there will time out and you will not be able to renew it. You need to check the rules but you need I think 2 years residence every 5 years to renew it.

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Thu, 18 Jul 2013 2:33 pm

We both did the same thing with our sons. Why burn bridges when you can build bridges that will keep all the doors open and also create networks that will in the future extend world wide. And it might make a man out of a boy in the process.

For the record, my son just finished his NS duties in May. Is he a better man for it? Only time will tell. But he did have a good time while in the Singapore Navy. Was he glad to be ORD'd, yes. But only because his band means more to him than the Navy does. They did ask him if he would like to sign on, but he gave 'em a miss (although his cousin did sign on as a commando in the army last year just after Nat'l Day).

Post by **PNGMK** » Fri, 19 Jul 2013 3:34 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:We both did the same thing with our sons. Why burn bridges when you can build bridges that will keep all the doors open and also create networks that will in the future extend world wide. And it might make a man out of a boy in the process.

For the record, my son just finished his NS duties in May. Is he a better man for it? Only time will tell. But he did have a good time while in the Singapore Navy. Was he glad to be ORD'd, yes. But only because his band means more to him than the Navy does. They did ask him if he would like to sign on, but he gave 'em a miss (although his cousin did sign on as a commando in the army last year just after Nat'l Day).

Singapore navy is actually serious stuff - I went to their open day a few days back. To be a commando would be a privilege. I guess the OP kids will just end up being the usual fat four eyed asians you see in the west instead of some lean, mean fighting machines ready to take on life.

Mad Scientist · Post by **Mad Scientist** » Fri, 19 Jul 2013 4:13 am

OP

There are a few things that you have not come grip and fully understand the nature of how the system works
There are three fold in your issue

1. Your PR under migrant skill point based system in OZ requires you to be in OZ for the two years of the five years OR 183 days opprox per year. Other scheme like family sponsor has more stringent requirement. You have to check on this first before you embark on NS issue. Unlike in NZ whereby it remains indefinite for those that become PR before 2010 (not sure but about this time) OZ has different rules. You are also not entitled to OZ Super and medical benefits. Rules has changed dramatically

2. Your son has OZ PP and SG citizenship. You can apply for Reentry Permit on his OZ PP and he is allowed to stay in SG as a local. go to ICA on 7th floor to get more info. I do not think the rule has changed much on this. As long as you do not apply for SG PP he can go to local school.
You do not need SG PP to register for local school just SC citizenship

3. Paying tax in SG , you have to pay your tax in OZ under world wide taxable income. That does not include your money in OZ bank . If you are out of OZ for more than 185 days approx, you need to inform ATO on changes to residency status if you do not want to pay tax but it will affect your PR status.

4. As long as he is in SG schooling before age of 13 and leave SG by then renouncing SG citizenship should not be an issue if you followed all the checklist on procedure to renounce SG citizenship

remember OZ PR is not a given and PR status do get revoke due technical issue. Check this first before proceeding

E-Gene · Post by **E-Gene** » Sat, 20 Jul 2013 1:54 am

Mad Scientist wrote:OP

There are a few things that you have not come grip and fully understand the nature of how the system works
There are three fold in your issue

1. Your PR under migrant skill point based system in OZ requires you to be in OZ for the two years of the five years OR 183 days opprox per year. Other scheme like family sponsor has more stringent requirement. You have to check on this first before you embark on NS issue. Unlike in NZ whereby it remains indefinite for those that become PR before 2010 (not sure but about this time) OZ has different rules. You are also not entitled to OZ Super and medical benefits. Rules has changed dramatically

I understand that part of it. We've just renewed our PR, so we are good for another 5 years.

2. Your son has OZ PP and SG citizenship. You can apply for Reentry Permit on his OZ PP and he is allowed to stay in SG as a local. go to ICA on 7th floor to get more info. I do not think the rule has changed much on this. As long as you do not apply for SG PP he can go to local school.
You do not need SG PP to register for local school just SC citizenship

Didn't know that. Will go check that out. This was the exact kind of info I was hoping for.

3. Paying tax in SG , you have to pay your tax in OZ under world wide taxable income. That does not include your money in OZ bank . If you are out of OZ for more than 185 days approx, you need to inform ATO on changes to residency status if you do not want to pay tax but it will affect your PR status.

I believe that there's a foreign tax offset for income earned overseas, but yes my accountant has been advising me on it.

4. As long as he is in SG schooling before age of 13 and leave SG by then renouncing SG citizenship should not be an issue if you followed all the checklist on procedure to renounce SG citizenship

Once again, this was the kind of info/advise I was after. Where can I find this "checklist" on procedures to renounce SG citizenship (should he decide to)?

remember OZ PR is not a given and PR status do get revoke due technical issue. Check this first before proceeding

Thanks MS for your unbiased advise, if only you came onto this topic a few days earlier, it would have saved all of us a lot of typing.

I am right to say that even if my son does do his NS, wouldn't he still have to give up one of his 2 citizenship when he turns 21?

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Sat, 20 Jul 2013 9:50 am

The first thread in the index of this forum, entitled "Guide to NS Issues", It's a sticky to keep it at the top of the page so it's easy for people to find.

http://forum.singaporeexpats.com/ftopic61423.html

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Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implications?

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