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Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implications?

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E-Gene
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Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implications?

Postby E-Gene » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 1:03 am

Hey guys,

Both myself and my wife are Singapore citizens with Australian PRs living in Australia. My son was born in Australia and thus an Aussie Citizen. When he was born, we also applied for him to be a Singapore citizen as we were clear of our stay in Australia. I've been given an opportunity to come back to Singapore to start a business and I would like my family to come over for a FEW years with possible intentions of heading back to Australia after.

My son turns 6 this year and would be starting Primary 1 next year. I've already applied for a place in my alma mater and it is highly likely that he will be accepted. He currently carries only an Australian passport but is a Singapore citizen too.

I've read various comments on the forum about NS implications but I've got a question.

What is the legal way for my son to do his primary school here for a few years, head back to Australia and still be able to renounce his SG citizenship when he is 21 (as an option if we do not, for some reason, decide to stay permanently in SG)?

This question is in relation to us trying to prevent him from obtaining "socio-economic benefits" form the government so as to make the possible renouncing easier later.

Thanks in advance.

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Postby AngMoG » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:29 am

Out of curiosity, why did you apply for him to be SG citizen if you were going to renounce that citizenship anyway? Especially knowing how SG gov looks at people who give up their citizenship, especially with the purpose to evade NS?

I think MadScientist may have to comment on this one, but it looks like your son already has bad cards for any future in SG, unless he does his NS. From stories I have read previously, if he gives up his citizenship without serving NS, he would most likely not ever be allowed to work in SG again.

He will certainly have to leave SG and renounce citizenship well before he is called to register for NS, so to be safe - maybe around the age of 15 or earlier? If you are still in SG by then, you could consider having him stay with a relative or friend in AU while finishing his school there.

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Postby E-Gene » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:48 am

Sorry for not being clearer. We applied for Singapore citizenship for him then because at that time we weren't sure if we were going to be in Australia permanently. I'm not worried about him working in Singapore in the future but I don't want him to have any issues coming and going from Singapore as our families are still here.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 10:50 am

He will not be allowed to avoid his NS obligation unless his citizen parents relinquish their citizenship if I'm not mistaken.

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Postby local lad » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 11:11 am

Correct me if I am wrong. Isn't it written in the ICA website that you will have to decide on the citizenship at the age of 12 ?

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Re: Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implicatio

Postby Mi Amigo » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 1:36 pm

E-Gene wrote:What is the legal way for my son to do his primary school here for a few years, head back to Australia and still be able to renounce his SG citizenship when he is 21 (as an option if we do not, for some reason, decide to stay permanently in SG)?

This question is in relation to us trying to prevent him from obtaining "socio-economic benefits" form the government so as to make the possible renouncing easier later.

Seems to me that the two points highlighted in red are mutually exclusive. Wanting to have your cake and eat it is the expression that comes to mind.
Be careful what you wish for

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Re: Dual Citizenship son starting pri school - NS implicatio

Postby PNGMK » Tue, 16 Jul 2013 3:48 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
E-Gene wrote:What is the legal way for my son to do his primary school here for a few years, head back to Australia and still be able to renounce his SG citizenship when he is 21 (as an option if we do not, for some reason, decide to stay permanently in SG)?

This question is in relation to us trying to prevent him from obtaining "socio-economic benefits" form the government so as to make the possible renouncing easier later.

Seems to me that the two points highlighted in red are mutually exclusive. Wanting to have your cake and eat it is the expression that comes to mind.


Indeed. OP needs to put the boy in the AIS or similar and pay for a start.

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Postby E-Gene » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:37 am

I've heard that he could study in a government school but if I inform MINDEF of his intention to give up his citizenship come 21, we will have to pay full fees.

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Postby AngMoG » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:16 am

E-Gene wrote:I've heard that he could study in a government school but if I inform MINDEF of his intention to give up his citizenship come 21, we will have to pay full fees.


I frankly do not think it matters much as to his future treatment by SG government, though I am not sure if others have had experiences with that. It only shows the consequences of renouncing will have in his future already early.

Additionally, there are a number of other socio-economic benefits that you as a family, and some him personally, are going to get that are more difficult to renounce.

Like it or not, the SG gov has a very long memory for people who try to evade NS one way or another, and makes sure they don't forget either by making it very difficult for those persons to obtain visa for Singapore.

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Postby E-Gene » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:21 am

So am I right to say that given our situation, it's better that he stays out of the Singapore system so as to be able to give up his citizenship in the future?

It's not confirm that he has to study here, but I'm exploring the options at the moment.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 12:41 pm

Perhaps MS (Mad Scientist) will see this thread and comment; he has extensive knowledge in this area.

In the meantime, it seems to me that you need to decide what you want for your son - do you want him to be Singaporean and live in Singapore for a while? In which case, let him do that and also let him serve his NS like other Singaporean men do. Or if not, let him be an Australian and go through the system there. Obviously these are just my personal views and you can of course do whatever you want. But it seems to me you are trying to pick and choose the 'good' parts of each country's citizenship, and avoid the more onerous ones. Not sure if that is really possible, or even morally appropriate TBH.
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Postby E-Gene » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 2:17 pm

I'm not sure why you'd feel that it isn't morally appropriate to want the best in both countries? I'm trying to do it so that my son doesn't "benefit" from the government in any way cos i know that he probably won't do NS. So I guess you can say that I'm trying to be fair to SG. We have the benefit of being both Aussie and Singapore and I pay my taxes on both sides, so fair to say that I should benefit from both sides.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 4:10 pm

E-Gene wrote:I'm not sure why you'd feel that it isn't morally appropriate to want the best in both countries? I'm trying to do it so that my son doesn't "benefit" from the government in any way cos i know that he probably won't do NS. So I guess you can say that I'm trying to be fair to SG. We have the benefit of being both Aussie and Singapore and I pay my taxes on both sides, so fair to say that I should benefit from both sides.


Oh, but you don't pay taxes to both sides. You only pay to Australia as income earned outside of Singapore is not taxable to Singaporeans. Fail. You are starting to sound like an abuser to me. Sorry, but that's the way it looks to onlookers.

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Postby E-Gene » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 4:15 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Oh, but you don't pay taxes to both sides. You only pay to Australia as income earned outside of Singapore is not taxable to Singaporeans. Fail. You are starting to sound like an abuser to me. Sorry, but that's the way it looks to onlookers.


I'm currently working in Singapore, in a Singapore company, and therefore I pay tax to the Singapore government. I've got a business and money in Australia and therefore I pay tax via the work that my company does and on the interest earned from my money in my bank.

I don't appreciate being called names when all I'm trying to do is to find out more information in regards to moving my family back here if necessary.

How is this a "fail"? Please don't get on your high horse and pretend to know who I am or what I do.

Is this really how you moderate a forum?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 17 Jul 2013 5:57 pm

I've been given an opportunity to come back to Singapore to start a business and I would like my family to come over for a FEW years with possible intentions of heading back to Australia after.


I apologize if I got your current context incorrect, but the above statement tends to indicate that you have been given an opportunity, but it doesn't say that you have taken it. Rather, your questions tend to say you are trying to find out information so you can make a decision. None of your subsequent posts indicate that you are currently working in Singapore. They all indicate a potential opportunity being presented.Therefore if you don't give us accurate facts, we can only surmise by your written word.....

But, that not withstanding, you still sound like you are trying to abuse the system. Therefore, bring your son at your own peril. There has been more than one who has burned their child's future bridges before they were even built while trying to avoid NS for their children and eventually shafting the child's future opportunities. But, unless you and your spouse give up your citizenship, I do not think you will be able to avoid NS for your son. Should you give up Singapore citizenship, then it's possible.

This lack of concise information, is that how you engage a forum?


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