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Edward Snowden - Great American Patriot or Gutless Traitor?

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kookaburrah
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Postby kookaburrah » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 12:54 pm

I think people are mostly huffing and puffing for no reason - I find it hard to believe this comes as a surprise to anyone who doesn't live in a cave.

How can people think emails, phone calls and any other means of electronic communications are safe?

As a typical European [don't be fooled by the name], I am hypersensitive to anything to do with invasion of privacy. I didn't want to get a passion card because the application form has mandatory questions (such as income) which are personal and absolutely none of their business.

However, I do feel that monitoring communications is the government's business. I am also convinced that my emails and calls, silly as some may be, are of absolutely no interest to them. And consequently couldn't be any less bothered by the news.

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 1:10 pm

kookaburrah wrote:I think people are mostly huffing and puffing for no reason - I find it hard to believe this comes as a surprise to anyone who doesn't live in a cave.

How can people think emails, phone calls and any other means of electronic communications are safe?

As a typical European [don't be fooled by the name], I am hypersensitive to anything to do with invasion of privacy. I didn't want to get a passion card because the application form has mandatory questions (such as income) which are personal and absolutely none of their business.

However, I do feel that monitoring communications is the government's business. I am also convinced that my emails and calls, silly as some may be, are of absolutely no interest to them. And consequently couldn't be any less bothered by the news.


Because American law guarantees certain freedoms and privacies and this was illegally trounced over. Despite what my avatar may lead you to believe, I'm not actually a terrorist, so I too am not worried about that part of it.

However I would hate for this metadata to be correlated in the future with other systems for 'crime prevention'. In the US it's a short and easy leap to see this information being used only for national security to things like 'copyright protection' to even municipalities tracking your cellphone location for traffic citations.

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Postby PNGMK » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 1:30 pm

It certainly reminds me (all this data being collected) of the despised Stasi files.

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Postby kookaburrah » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:21 pm

I am convinced that a majority of Americans would agree if I said: "It is acceptable to spy on the enemy."

I am also pretty certain most of those Americans would agree if I said: "Nowadays, terrorism is fought differently. The enemy is difficult to distinguish, and is as likely as not to live among us."

Yet, you put 2 and 2 together and the whole world comes down on the pretty obvious 4 you get.

It is naive to assume governments are not keeping an eye on communications. All manner of communications. I agree the potential for misuse is there, but that is yet another price we pay for convenience. Want Darlene in Langley not to read your emails? Get off your ass and walk down the corridor. As I imagine it, Darlene is probably wishing she was dead as she reads yet another salacious emails about bob from accounting and watches yet another video of a kitten raised by opossums. Our little foibles, terrible as they may seem to us, are probably peanuts to them, and don't even register on their radar.

I hope the misuse does not occur. I can only hope. When it does (as it is wont to), lets address that. That would be the real news. The shocker. Not the fact that it MAY happen.

zzm9980 wrote:
Because American law guarantees certain freedoms and privacies and this was illegally trounced over. Despite what my avatar may lead you to believe, I'm not actually a terrorist, so I too am not worried about that part of it.

However I would hate for this metadata to be correlated in the future with other systems for 'crime prevention'. In the US it's a short and easy leap to see this information being used only for national security to things like 'copyright protection' to even municipalities tracking your cellphone location for traffic citations.

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Postby ecureilx » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:21 pm

zzm9980 wrote:However I would hate for this metadata to be correlated in the future with other systems for 'crime prevention'. In the US it's a short and easy leap to see this information being used only for national security to things like 'copyright protection' to even municipalities tracking your cellphone location for traffic citations.


On a related note .. but not so relevant ..

For a near miss, thanks to Google and some innovative way the cache etc, one of my ex- wrote some not so nice things about me and well, about some of her Girl friends here too, the latter were more sour than what she wrote about me .. and last year, when somebody had searched for something else and guess what turned up... all 'cached' stuff .. and juicy stuff .. though the original blog had vanished, as the girl in question had had a makeover and went on with another guy and I am 100% sure she wouldn't want the new guy to know her rants and her exploits etc. Forget about others reading ..

What security again ? :D :D

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Postby kookaburrah » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:26 pm

kookaburrah wrote: Get off your ass and walk down the corridor.


That sounded harsh. Hopefully you realise I am not talking about your arse, but of a generic one, out there. :?

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:30 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
the lynx wrote:http://www.campaignforliberty.org/national-blog/ron-paul-on-edward-snowdens-indictment/

My understanding is that espionage means giving secret or classified information to the enemy. Since Snowden shared information with the American people, his indictment for espionage could reveal (or confirm) that the US Government views you and me as the enemy.

-Ron Paul


I like this.


:lol:
+1

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Re: Edward Snowden - Great American Patriot or Gutless Trait

Postby JR8 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:38 pm

PNGMK wrote:Apart from his hilarious game of "where's Snowden" it seems the US populace is very much against him....I'm not thrilled that he now seems to be in bed with that great Aussie self grandiser Assange but Snowden seems to have done the public a service.


It is an interesting question on the boundary of morality vs conscience.

I think if you opt to work for a company, then you respect it's rules, privacy*, and so on: And if you can't you leave.

But if they are doing something that is of import regarding a wide public audience 'of the innocents', that so morally offends you, then, yes I think you would be in the [moral] right for it be known. But, in doing so you should be very clear of the consequences, and accept them, up to including you being 'rubbed out'. So, what price conscience?


* You can be sure he was signed up to confidentiality agreements to his eye-balls - and he's broken them.

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Re: Edward Snowden - Great American Patriot or Gutless Trait

Postby PNGMK » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:49 pm

JR8 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:Apart from his hilarious game of "where's Snowden" it seems the US populace is very much against him....I'm not thrilled that he now seems to be in bed with that great Aussie self grandiser Assange but Snowden seems to have done the public a service.


It is an interesting question on the boundary of morality vs conscience.

I think if you opt to work for a company, then you respect it's rules, privacy*, and so on: And if you can't you leave.

But if they are doing something that is of import regarding a wide public audience 'of the innocents', that so morally offends you, then, yes I think you would be in the [moral] right for it be known. But, in doing so you should be very clear of the consequences, and accept them, up to including you being 'rubbed out'. So, what price conscience?


* You can be sure he was signed up to confidentiality agreements to his eye-balls - and he's broken them.


If the over stuffers who worked for the Nazi's signed NDA does that protect them as well? Your analogy - that signing confidentiality agreements prevents one from having morals and acting on them is so wrong it baffles me. But what else would I expect from a landlord.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 2:59 pm

Apologies, when you asked:

'Edward Snowden - Great American Patriot or Gutless Traitor?'



I mistakenly thought you were asking what people's opinions are.

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 3:08 pm

This changes a lot, and does not look as good for Mr Snowden:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/snowde ... xpose-nsa/

[quote]Surveillance whistleblower and current Carmen San Diego impersonator Edward Snowden was a man on a mission: according to his latest interview, he took a private contractor position with the intent of exposing the National Security Agency. “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,â€Â

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Postby kookaburrah » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 3:20 pm

I agree, zzm. Mr Snowden is actually beginning to sound like a bit of a shit. It's difficult to remain sympathetic in the face of the crafty clever-clog antics he's been pulling - one Assange is quite enough thank you.

[quote="zzm9980"]This changes a lot, and does not look as good for Mr Snowden:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/24/snowde ... xpose-nsa/

[quote]Surveillance whistleblower and current Carmen San Diego impersonator Edward Snowden was a man on a mission: according to his latest interview, he took a private contractor position with the intent of exposing the National Security Agency. “My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked,â€Â

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 3:29 pm

zzm9980 wrote:Because American law guarantees certain freedoms and privacies and this was illegally trounced over....


A difficulty I see if that the US exists in the 21st Century, publicly bound by 250 year old values and promises (yer know, when 'Pirates of the Caribbean' was daily real-life)

The flip-side is how far do you trust the state to act in the peoples' best interests?

Boy, I'd love to be the lawyer defending that case! :-D

zzm9980 wrote:However I would hate for this metadata to be correlated in the future with other systems for 'crime prevention'. In the US it's a short and easy leap to see this information being used only for national security to things like 'copyright protection' to even municipalities tracking your cellphone location for traffic citations.



They do all of this in Singapore [shrug]...


p.s. to PNGMK.
A difference with the Stasi (and I visited East Germany before the wall came down), was the huge amount of the state's manpower that went into exerting such paranoid control. It reminds me of Cuba (-do- previous brackets), that had 'revolutionary neighbourhood committees' to observe and report on '''neighbourhood patriotism'''.

... At least we're not talking about fleeing across minefields just to leave (yet) ;;

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 3:41 pm

kookaburrah wrote:I agree, zzm. Mr Snowden is actually beginning to sound like a bit of a shit. It's difficult to remain sympathetic in the face of the crafty clever-clog antics he's been pulling - one Assange is quite enough thank you.


Exactly my thought! Can the ego and stick to the original message, or you'll lose the peoples' support.

JR8 wrote:A difficulty I see if that the US exists in the 21st Century, publicly bound by 250 year old values and promises (yer know, when 'Pirates of the Caribbean' was daily real-life)

The flip-side is how far do you trust the state to act in the peoples' best interests?


It's a pickle, that's for sure. I actually think the document doesn't need too many revisions, it just needs wise interpreters to use it as a guide for the public's best interests. In other words, someone morally opposite most US elected officials.

JR8 wrote:They do all of this in Singapore [shrug]...


I know, but I don't mind it as I'm in the 'guest' mindset here. I live by their rules.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 26 Jun 2013 3:43 pm

kookaburrah wrote:I agree, zzm. Mr Snowden is actually beginning to sound like a bit of a shit. It's difficult to remain sympathetic in the face of the crafty clever-clog antics he's been pulling - one Assange is quite enough thank you.


Spot-on!
Assange is repulsive. He purports to be morally superior, selfless and noble, while fleeing rape-allegations, under the guise of 'The Yanks are out to get me'.


p.s.
Back in my day the headline grabbers were bank-robbers, and mass-murderers.

Is cyber and data crime the new equivalent?

Who would get the bigger headline:

- IT drone caught up in espionage allegations

- Person goes out and over a month kills 6 people?


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