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Postby x9200 » Sat, 18 May 2013 9:00 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
Hannieroo wrote:Is that what he meant? Because a degree in software engineering would be an appropriate course of study for a programmer. I think it was quite clear that the engineering background referred to was closer to the traditional qualification. Because if not this entire thread is null and void.


There is no such thing as software "engineering". All the aforementioned "engineers" use this term to make things sound more glamorous. In some countries it is illegal to use the word "engineer" in a title unless you have been certified... just like doctor or lawyer.

As I said, engineers build. They take discovered physical/chemical principles and ramp them up so that they can be used commercially.

Programmers code. Designers design. That's why there is no degree in software engineering and never will be. There is a degree in computer science but for business IT purposes, a degree in management information systems is better.

I think this is a bit archaic understanding of that term. Engineers do indeed the part you mentioned above (me put in bold) but the "build" and physical (touchable) component is not necessary there in the traditional form. I dare to say the whole applied IT is pure engineering and non-engineering IT is a small fraction (tru blue sky algorithms developments for example). The code is a virtual construction if there is some analogy needed.

Google and see how many established unis use the term software engineering degree. Example:
http://www.cmu.edu/silicon-valley/acade ... gineering/

The certification you mentioned applies often only to the areas where it is necessary (i.e. for the safety reasons) and very often is done outside the basic eng. uni. course.

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Postby yogaloungeforever » Sat, 18 May 2013 11:05 am

Aragorn2000 wrote:
Here we go again.

Why is it always IT in India? Why don't ppl there just do "engineering" after studying "engineering" and leave programming jobs to CS graduates?

well, the education system in India is still not on par with say the UK. That said, I don't see an Indian-educated CS degree graduates working at IBM's R&D UK facility nor do I see Indian-educated CS degree graduates at Microsoft's US R&D either

No wonder there are so many sub standard Indian programmers who always want to "grow" into PMs, BAs, managers etc..

Totally in agreement with this. The majority of them, in Singapore, are here because they just can't find a decent paying job in India which will help them get a retirement property back in India

And in the process, they commoditize IT jobs to the same level as plumbing.


Life is short hence I live it to its fullest, that is .... I eat and sleep

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Postby PNGMK » Sun, 19 May 2013 9:13 pm

Sergei82 wrote:
Hannieroo wrote:True, the field is large and diverse.

So don't you know that there are titles such as Software Engineer, Programming Engineer etc? ;)


20 years ago I was a programmer. I told my colleagues I'm going back to 'real' engineering because this job will become clerical. I was right. 99% of pgoramming is writing code to a domain engineers specifications (that's right - not to a software engineers specifications). OK - there might be an API and a SDD and a few others done by IT folks in between the functional spec and the final code but it's the domain engineers who rule the bloody roost - the rest of you are just code monkeys and WE don't like you trying to be creative - we just want you to write solid, testable code to spec that follows our design. Welcome to the new world.

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Postby Wd40 » Mon, 20 May 2013 8:38 am

PNGMK wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:
Hannieroo wrote:True, the field is large and diverse.

So don't you know that there are titles such as Software Engineer, Programming Engineer etc? ;)


20 years ago I was a programmer. I told my colleagues I'm going back to 'real' engineering because this job will become clerical. I was right. 99% of pgoramming is writing code to a domain engineers specifications (that's right - not to a software engineers specifications). OK - there might be an API and a SDD and a few others done by IT folks in between the functional spec and the final code but it's the domain engineers who rule the bloody roost - the rest of you are just code monkeys and WE don't like you trying to be creative - we just want you to write solid, testable code to spec that follows our design. Welcome to the new world.


Well, I dont quite agree. First of all most of the top paying IT guys us like to work for banks and not for domain engineers.

I had almost got an offer from Keppel FELS, probably your domain, offshore drilling, yeah? I rejected it, without even getting into the salary negotiation part. After working in plush business areas like CBP, I cant get myself to work close to a shipyard along with those rig workers. Even though the office itself is a decent building, the surrounding is pathetic. The factory work atmosphere and timings 7:30AM to 4:30PM and working half day every alternate saturday were also a big put off.

Even then, there is very little IT happening in domain engineers space and whatever little happens is mostly in ERP space and I bet you they get paid better that your average domain engineer.

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Postby nakatago » Mon, 20 May 2013 9:02 am

PNGMK wrote: the rest of you are just code monkeys and WE don't like you trying to be creative - we just want you to write solid, testable code to spec that follows our design. Welcome to the new world.


It's usually code monkey or IT insultant.

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Postby QRM » Mon, 20 May 2013 9:20 am

JR8 wrote: It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...


Thats why I took up architecture, extends the crazy hazy student days by 7 years, very few actually make it in "only" 7 years one of my chums took 12 years to qualify!

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 20 May 2013 9:14 pm

7?!

No wonder they charge so much :o

In my day Medicine was 5, veterinary was 4, and everything else was 3.

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Postby PNGMK » Wed, 22 May 2013 11:15 am

Wd40 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:
Hannieroo wrote:True, the field is large and diverse.

So don't you know that there are titles such as Software Engineer, Programming Engineer etc? ;)


20 years ago I was a programmer. I told my colleagues I'm going back to 'real' engineering because this job will become clerical. I was right. 99% of pgoramming is writing code to a domain engineers specifications (that's right - not to a software engineers specifications). OK - there might be an API and a SDD and a few others done by IT folks in between the functional spec and the final code but it's the domain engineers who rule the bloody roost - the rest of you are just code monkeys and WE don't like you trying to be creative - we just want you to write solid, testable code to spec that follows our design. Welcome to the new world.


Well, I dont quite agree. First of all most of the top paying IT guys us like to work for banks and not for domain engineers.

I had almost got an offer from Keppel FELS, probably your domain, offshore drilling, yeah? I rejected it, without even getting into the salary negotiation part. After working in plush business areas like CBP, I cant get myself to work close to a shipyard along with those rig workers. Even though the office itself is a decent building, the surrounding is pathetic. The factory work atmosphere and timings 7:30AM to 4:30PM and working half day every alternate saturday were also a big put off.

Even then, there is very little IT happening in domain engineers space and whatever little happens is mostly in ERP space and I bet you they get paid better that your average domain engineer.


There's a lot more IT around than just Finance systems. In most of those fields the domain experts will rule the roost - the programmers are living in shanties in Bangalore.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 22 May 2013 11:31 am

Wd40, since when CBP became a plush area? Even now I consider it to be a shit hole no better than a shipyard.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 22 May 2013 11:53 am

Sergei82 wrote:Wd40, since when CBP became a plush area? Even now I consider it to be a shit hole no better than a shipyard.


Our new building in Changi City point is indeed nice place connected to the mall.

Now I bet you havent been to the Tuas area where the shipyard is. Go to Google maps and use the street view at this location 50 Gul Road. You will know what I am talking about. I ride a motorcycle, even then this place is so far, unless I stay at the absolutely final habital point in the Jurong west area, even then my office to home is 8kms.

In Changi area you see either IT guys or Business guys, usually Ang Mohs in suits. In Tuas area you see Bangla and PRC workers wearing those uniforms orange or blue and helmets. Its like working inside a construction site :o

My current place in Tampines is 5 kms from CBP and just to give you an idea how good my current house location is, there is a subway and dominos at 5 mins walk from my house, may be because Tampines JC is near by. There is no way I am going to leave this location :)
Last edited by Wd40 on Wed, 22 May 2013 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 22 May 2013 11:58 am

Wd40, if you were relocated to Raffles Place like me, you would have never called CBP a plush area. :)

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 22 May 2013 12:04 pm

I know, I know :) Raffles place is a treat to work at, but CBP is next best.

But if you consider the commute, on bike with the ERPs and time, I prefer CBP.

MRT, just forget it. Sardine cans and I just hate the monotony of seeing so many people walk like ants glued into their cell phones.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 22 May 2013 12:16 pm

PNGMK wrote:
Wd40 wrote:
PNGMK wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:
Hannieroo wrote:True, the field is large and diverse.

So don't you know that there are titles such as Software Engineer, Programming Engineer etc? ;)


20 years ago I was a programmer. I told my colleagues I'm going back to 'real' engineering because this job will become clerical. I was right. 99% of pgoramming is writing code to a domain engineers specifications (that's right - not to a software engineers specifications). OK - there might be an API and a SDD and a few others done by IT folks in between the functional spec and the final code but it's the domain engineers who rule the bloody roost - the rest of you are just code monkeys and WE don't like you trying to be creative - we just want you to write solid, testable code to spec that follows our design. Welcome to the new world.


Well, I dont quite agree. First of all most of the top paying IT guys us like to work for banks and not for domain engineers.

I had almost got an offer from Keppel FELS, probably your domain, offshore drilling, yeah? I rejected it, without even getting into the salary negotiation part. After working in plush business areas like CBP, I cant get myself to work close to a shipyard along with those rig workers. Even though the office itself is a decent building, the surrounding is pathetic. The factory work atmosphere and timings 7:30AM to 4:30PM and working half day every alternate saturday were also a big put off.

Even then, there is very little IT happening in domain engineers space and whatever little happens is mostly in ERP space and I bet you they get paid better that your average domain engineer.


There's a lot more IT around than just Finance systems. In most of those fields the domain experts will rule the roost - the programmers are living in shanties in Bangalore.


Programmers in Bangalore are living life kingsize, their salaries are above average cost of living due to the arbitrage with the dollar exchange rate. IT salaries in Bangalore are half of Singapore and CoL is way lesser. A house there cost there is 2 years of annual income and a car cost is 2 months salary. With so much disposable income, I wonder who is ruling the roost. ;)

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 22 May 2013 12:20 pm

Wd40 wrote:I know, I know :) Raffles place is a treat to work at, but CBP is next best.

But if you consider the commute, on bike with the ERPs and time, I prefer CBP.

MRT, just forget it. Sardine cans and I just hate the monotony of seeing so many people walk like ants glued into their cell phones.

Next best??? How about City Hall, Harbourfront etc?
Ok, sorry for offtopic. Can't stop ranting abt transportation to CBP. Its not at its best yet.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 22 May 2013 12:26 pm

Sergei82 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:I know, I know :) Raffles place is a treat to work at, but CBP is next best.

But if you consider the commute, on bike with the ERPs and time, I prefer CBP.

MRT, just forget it. Sardine cans and I just hate the monotony of seeing so many people walk like ants glued into their cell phones.

Next best??? How about City Hall, Harbourfront etc?
Ok, sorry for offtopic. Can't stop ranting abt transportation to CBP. Its not at its best yet.


Yeah, I mean the whole CBD(Central Business District) area is nice. Transportationwise, I agree, considering the distance, the time taken by MRT is insane due to the Tanah Merah stopover. But hey I am unaffected by that ;)

For MRT lovers, just wait 4 more years, the downtown line is coming and the there will be an MRT exit right below Changi City Point :)


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