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Postby JR8 » Wed, 15 May 2013 7:11 pm

Wd40 wrote:Agree. To add, your 15 years exp tells your age. If you were born in the 80s though, its unlikely you will do much progress without a degree


Crazy isn't it? When I was young, it was only people going into professions (doctors, vets, architects etc) who went to university. These days it seems like an expected step, capping off education for the middle classes. Many people seem to do Mickey-Mouse courses; it's like 'I've no idea what career I want, so I'll just pick any uni course in which I think I can graduate'.

Madness, three of your best years wasted on something of nil value to you. It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 15 May 2013 7:18 pm

JR8 wrote:Madness, three of your best years wasted on something of nil value to you. It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...


I had FIVE.

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 15 May 2013 7:31 pm

Wd40 wrote:If you were born in the 80s though, its unlikely you will do much progress without a degree


Oh, thanks for clarifying that. I was under the mistaken impression I was "progressing" rather well. Always happy to be corrected :cool:

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 15 May 2013 8:53 pm

nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote:Madness, three of your best years wasted on something of nil value to you. It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...


I had FIVE.

First I thought what JR8 meant was to study only for a piece of paper but after rereading the above I am not sure. I have more than five and it was a world opening for me.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 15 May 2013 9:34 pm

x9200 wrote:
nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote:Madness, three of your best years wasted on something of nil value to you. It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...


I had FIVE.

First I thought what JR8 meant was to study only for a piece of paper but after rereading the above I am not sure. I have more than five and it was a world opening for me.


Maybe different perspectives?

I went to uni, it was pointless.

I dropped out.

I hit my first job, as a LIFFE floor booth operator at 21. I was relatively old, and ignorant, I should have been there at 15 or 16. There were kids who'd started at that young, traders (fully qualified coloured jackets) at 17/18 ... well welcome to the meritocracy!!!

If I seem to have little sympathy for dreamers... well ....

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 15 May 2013 9:46 pm

JR8 wrote:Maybe different perspectives?
[..]
If I seem to have little sympathy for dreamers... well ....

Just a different way and not for everybody it is pointless. Why to judge? It always comes to personal "happiness", satisfaction and fulfillment level and not to what someone is actually doing and how high is he or she educated.

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 15 May 2013 9:58 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:
nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote:Madness, three of your best years wasted on something of nil value to you. It's like conveniently denying entry to the real and hard world, for 3 more years taking it easy...


I had FIVE.

First I thought what JR8 meant was to study only for a piece of paper but after rereading the above I am not sure. I have more than five and it was a world opening for me.


Maybe different perspectives?

I went to uni, it was pointless.

I dropped out.

I hit my first job, as a LIFFE floor booth operator at 21. I was relatively old, and ignorant, I should have been there at 15 or 16. There were kids who'd started at that young, traders (fully qualified coloured jackets) at 17/18 ... well welcome to the meritocracy!!!

If I seem to have little sympathy for dreamers... well ....


You need to be careful with qualifiers. Sure, the big bad world out there requires skills and knowledge not taught in tertiary education. Attitude, creativity, moxie...talent are very important and oftentimes are required to succeed.

There are other things that require training. Science, technology, engineering. Not all the guts and attitude in the world is enough to succeed in them. You can read and immerse yourself but if no one shows you how to make sense of it all, you don't have all the time in the world to make mistakes to learn from.

That said, training and education doesn't necessarily come from formal education. People can go to a mentor. Become an apprentice. Read. Experiment. Have someone who knows more than you show you the f***** ropes.

Sure, a lot of degrees are pointless. Who would hire an MBA who has no industry experience? What would a degree in Ancient Aztec literature bring to the economy. Why the hell would anyone should be impressed by a master's degree from a university prestigious only in your town?

On the other hand, you get these people who've been studying longer than most people would and are brilliant in their field. They would have never made that breakthrough if they didn't study.

Hence, having that piece of paper is not completely useless. It serves one purpose--it sets an expectation for whose name appear on it should have the minimal ability to do something. If you have a degree, then you should be able to do something for a bare minimum. If you don't meet that expectation, then that indeed is a waste of time and money. If you don't have a degree, then you don't have that burden of expectation.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 15 May 2013 10:32 pm

nakatago wrote:What would a degree in Ancient Aztec literature bring to the economy.

Why should it always bring something (significant I assume) to the economy? Where would you draw the line of something being useful and something else not? By hard cash value?

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 15 May 2013 10:58 pm

Very good points by JR8, Nak and X9200.

I would just add on something relevant to my area. In India, an engineering degree is kind of the bare minimum to get an IT job. Its not that engineering is necessary for an IT job, its just that employers trust that a person who can spend 4 rigorous years going through 64 exams and score top, should be able to program.

Its also easier to choose people who pass out from top colleges. Imagine, if there were no colleges and there are millions of Indians looking for jobs, how the heck are the employers going to separate needle from haystack.

In the same vein, its not the IITs or the top MBA colleges that are fully responsible in making successful people. The fact that the creme de la creme go to these top colleges, its is natural that the output is going to be top notch.

If everybody in this world could afford to go to top notch colleges, then the value of the degree becomes lot lesser than it is.

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Postby Aragorn2000 » Thu, 16 May 2013 12:14 am

Wd40 wrote:Very good points by JR8, Nak and X9200.

I would just add on something relevant to my area. In India, an engineering degree is kind of the bare minimum to get an IT job. Its not that engineering is necessary for an IT job, its just that employers trust that a person who can spend 4 rigorous years going through 64 exams and score top, should be able to program.

Its also easier to choose people who pass out from top colleges. Imagine, if there were no colleges and there are millions of Indians looking for jobs, how the heck are the employers going to separate needle from haystack.

In the same vein, its not the IITs or the top MBA colleges that are fully responsible in making successful people. The fact that the creme de la creme go to these top colleges, its is natural that the output is going to be top notch.

If everybody in this world could afford to go to top notch colleges, then the value of the degree becomes lot lesser than it is.


Here we go again.

Why is it always IT in India? Why don't ppl there just do "engineering" after studying "engineering" and leave programming jobs to CS graduates?

No wonder there are so many sub standard Indian programmers who always want to "grow" into PMs, BAs, managers etc..
And in the process, they commoditize IT jobs to the same level as plumbing.

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Postby Wd40 » Thu, 16 May 2013 3:47 am

Aragorn2000 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:Very good points by JR8, Nak and X9200.

I would just add on something relevant to my area. In India, an engineering degree is kind of the bare minimum to get an IT job. Its not that engineering is necessary for an IT job, its just that employers trust that a person who can spend 4 rigorous years going through 64 exams and score top, should be able to program.

Its also easier to choose people who pass out from top colleges. Imagine, if there were no colleges and there are millions of Indians looking for jobs, how the heck are the employers going to separate needle from haystack.

In the same vein, its not the IITs or the top MBA colleges that are fully responsible in making successful people. The fact that the creme de la creme go to these top colleges, its is natural that the output is going to be top notch.

If everybody in this world could afford to go to top notch colleges, then the value of the degree becomes lot lesser than it is.


Here we go again.

Why is it always IT in India? Why don't ppl there just do "engineering" after studying "engineering" and leave programming jobs to CS graduates?

No wonder there are so many sub standard Indian programmers who always want to "grow" into PMs, BAs, managers etc..
And in the process, they commoditize IT jobs to the same level as plumbing.


Q)Why is it IT in India?
A)Thats where the jobs are and thats where the money is. Thats economics.

Q)Why do people do engineering then if they have to go to IT anway?
A)That is because employers want engineers.

Q)Why employers want Engineers?
A)Because top notch people do Engineering.

Q)Why top notch people do Engineering.
A)Its considered the Top degree at the graduation level in India with tougher entry requirements and limited seats.

I mean look, you need to spend 3-4 years doing graduation in India anyways. So why not do engineering. I dont see anything wrong with it.

I dont agree with you that Indians in IT are substandard, because they do engineering. Engineers are better than CS graduates. Its just that there is a lot of demand for IT that even substandard people can get jobs. Again demand and supply economics.

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Postby Hannieroo » Thu, 16 May 2013 8:56 am

I don't know, wouldn't you hire somebody who had actually studied IT? That makes no sense, my husband is an engineer and that does indeed show that he is capable of 4 years of rigorous study and passing exams at a high level but it doesn't mean he can program or be a doctor or teach history. It means he can be an engineer. If engineering degrees in India simply prove somebody is capable of study then they have no merit in the real world because you could raise that bar and state only neurosurgeons should apply for IT. Your engineering degree should get you a top notch job in engineering otherwise it could be viewed as a bit of a fail and a waste of your parent's money.

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Postby nakatago » Thu, 16 May 2013 9:25 am

x9200 wrote:
nakatago wrote:What would a degree in Ancient Aztec literature bring to the economy.

Why should it always bring something (significant I assume) to the economy? Where would you draw the line of something being useful and something else not? By hard cash value?


Some people take degrees without knowing what they'll do after they graduate. Will they teach? Will they go to other countries for research? Will they write books? Hard cash isn't always the line; knowledge will always bring something to the economy but the point I was trying to make is that some people don't think things through. It's the classic joke about English literature majors only able to get jobs as fast food crew if they will not teach.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 16 May 2013 9:43 am

Besides, and what also stroke me only some time after reading JR8's post... to say 3 years useless studies and wasting time... It's sounds like a lame excuse for lazy primary or secondary school students you could find in hundred of memes all over the Internet. Because Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and whoever he or she is including JR8 have been successful in achieving their goals without a degree it does not mean everybody is going to be. It requires a set of skills or better a character independent on any degree related courses. You can be a wealthy person (I guess this is the criteria) barely finishing primary school. Unfortunately majority of the useless education thinkers for some reason do not end up wealthy and it looks like those who wasted 3 or more years are as per average more successful.

Sorry JR8, nothing personal and attacking, just probably not enough diplomatic and linguistic skills on my side to put it less aggressive. Hope you don't mind.

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Postby Wd40 » Thu, 16 May 2013 9:54 am

Hannieroo wrote:I don't know, wouldn't you hire somebody who had actually studied IT? That makes no sense, my husband is an engineer and that does indeed show that he is capable of 4 years of rigorous study and passing exams at a high level but it doesn't mean he can program or be a doctor or teach history. It means he can be an engineer. If engineering degrees in India simply prove somebody is capable of study then they have no merit in the real world because you could raise that bar and state only neurosurgeons should apply for IT. Your engineering degree should get you a top notch job in engineering otherwise it could be viewed as a bit of a fail and a waste of your parent's money.


The thing about IT is it is very dynamic and even colleges in India that teach CS are not always uptodate with technology.

You can ask any IT guy and he will tell you that is a continuous learning process. So its not just learn something once and it will be with you forever. In fact in IT, more often than not, what you actually learn in college, even if it is IT specific is useless. Hence the ability to learn new, analytic capability etc are important to IT. Engineers have these qualities.

In case of classic engineering jobs, its different I guess, a civil engineer for example learns most of fundamental and essential stuff in college and he cant do without it. Thats simply not the case with IT.

Heck, the previous UK based specialist IT consulting company that I worked, didnt even conduct any technical tests for recruitment.
There had something called as assessment centre where you spend a whole day in office and they test your analytical skills, presentation skills, group discussion etc.
Last edited by Wd40 on Thu, 16 May 2013 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.


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