Indecisive Dad - Go go local or international

[wallop]

I am having a mental battle trying to make the right decision for my son who is due to start primary school next year. I realise that it's each to his/her own, but i'm torn on which way to go.

To give a bit of background, we are an English family who have been in Singapore for around 3 years. Our son currently goes to an international kindergarten which we are quite happy with. We are not receiving an education allowance.

WANTS (in no order of preference): for him to have a happy school life, to be achieving above-average results, to enjoy learning, to be pushed (but not overly so), to speak proper English (we don't want him to speak Singlish) and to be level-headed.

Here are my candid pros and cons on both the intl and local (gov) systems. Some of my points are contraditictory, but hey, i'm just sharing my thoughts.

INTERNATIONAL
Pros: mix of students from different backgrounds, learning not memorising, less academic pressure, happy children?, emphasis on sports.
Cons: expensive, no entry tests, bratty (spoilt) kids, not enough academic input, too many children coming and going (due to the transitory nature of expat life in SG), big classes?, all show and not much value for money for parents who are not given an education allowance.

LOCAL
Pros: sound academic standards (for most schools?), good discipline, nice and polite children (but perhaps a bit sheltered), good reachers.
Cons: Singlish, far too many tests and exams, too much homework at such a young age, unhappy (and stressed) kids, not enough balance, big classes?, all academia and little focus on sports.

Basically, i am looking for a school that resembles the Norway education system where children go to school, have a great balance between learning and playing, and don't have masses amounts of homework. I think i am dreaming right?

I would be keen to hear your opinions and be grateful if you could recommend any schools that fit my ideal requirements.

[movingtospore]

Are you sure you can even get into a local school? It's not a given. We tried 2 years in a row and gave up. The only one that would take us dirty foreigners was wayyyyy out in Changi. Unless they've scared enough foreigners out of the country now, so there are more P1 spots, you may not really have a choice.

[ScoobyDoes]

We have our boy in P1 at local school and he is enjoying it.

Homework is not excessive, I think we can manage in an hour or two a day, being in mind he gets home around 1:30pm there is enough time left to complete extra work.

There is just as wide a mix of students at local schools as you can find at international ones. Don't take it for granted, though, they are nice and polite! If you speak proper English at home then the fear of Singlish is reduced, and in fact adopting it as 'another language' can be handy here. Our little one switches from one 'language' to another quite easily depending on who he's talking too.



One of our friends is pulling her son out of International School because they are too slow, too lax and otherwise 'free flowing' which, for the price difference, is what we considered most when deciding to go local. Our boy needs pushing to do anything but I have to say, at this moment we are relatively relaxed about our decision.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Both of mine did their entire schooling via the local routes, from Kindergarten through their tertiary educations (what there was of that....). Both are fluent in English (albeit, not the Queen's but Yank style), Singlish & Mandarin and both understand Tamil as well but don't speak the language. As my wife grew up in a British Military camp here in Singapore her English is very British with a bit of American thrown in from 30 years of being around one and the TV. Between the two of us, we never spoke anything but decent English around the kids, this tended to reinforce what they were taught in the local schools but of course they picked up the local patois, Singlish, as well in the process as all their friend spoke it at first language level. It works good for them as they blend in well but are good for international business standards as well.

[Roasted squid]

ScoobyDoes - what school does your son attend? We plan on putting our children in local schools to maintain their Chinese (they attend Mandarin Immersion schools in the US). We will be moving in June/July timeframe and the older one will be in P2 and the younger in K2. How difficult was it to get into a school?

[therat]

For your primary 2 child, 2013 registration will be conducted between July and August 2013.

Refer to this link for update
http://moe.gov.sg/education/admissions/ ... istration/

How difficult was it to get into a school?

As your child are not Singapore Citizens or Singapore Permanent Residents. He or she will be place under Phase 3. MOE will release which school has available places after Phase 1 to 2C.
You only can register these school.


For more detail about phase information, refer to this
http://moe.gov.sg/education/admissions/ ... on/phases/

Quote from MOE web

Balloting will be conducted in Phase 3 if the number of applications exceeds the number of places available at the end of Phase 3 registration. Balloting will be conducted one day after phase 3 registration.

With effect from the 2012 Primary One Registration Exercise, for non Singapore Citizen / Singapore Permanent Resident children who have not been able to obtain a place at their school of choice after the Phase 3 balloting, MOE will post the child to a suitable primary school with vacancy. The posting outcome will be released to the parent a month after the balloting. MOE posting is final and no appeals will be entertained. Schools will also not entertain any walk-in applications.

[ScoobyDoes]

How difficult was it to get into a school?

It is easy getting into A school, just probably difficult getting into the EXACT school you want. I wouldn't sign a lease on an apartment until MoE tells you what school your P2 child will attend.

From there it should be easier getting your second into the same school for the year later.

[wallop]

I really appreciate all of your responses, they have certainly given me some food for thought. It seems that the local option is coming up trumps, which is a welcome surprise.

I can't help but feel the International Schools do not have the best intentions in place, which is why i was wavering so much.

I wouldn't hesitate to put my son in an independent primary school in the UK because in most cases the school will have a tough job in proving its worth to fee paying parents. But I can't help thinking that the International Schools in Singapore tend to have an almost guaranteed financial source by way of expat education allowances. This is my biggest bugbear because they surely must have little to strive for? For instance, does Tanglin Trust need to do anything extraordinary in the academic sense or otherwise to prove itself when it's got parents lining up at the door?

Now my challenge is finding a local school that's not in the wilds of Changi

[katbh]

I also have children in local schools from Primary 3 to Tertiary. I also have had children in International School. Local schools are by far the best. They are great schools. They can make and keep friends - unlike International Schools where they are forever moving on. The switch easily between singlish and good english. They learn more english in local school than they do international.
I am sick and tired of hearing from my children that expat children are brain washed about local schools. They are forever hearing from expat kids how they think local schools beat children with canes etc. How they are such bad schools. Well I believe the reverse is true.
No you do not get beaten. In Primary school homework is minimal if you are of reasonable intelligence. Most of the time it can be done in school as most children of english or western parents will be 'mother tongue exempt' which means that they get a whole class at school to do their homework.
The only time things get hairy is at PSLE time. But if you offer a good level headed approach , they will not be stressed. Do not be kiasu.. just let your children study without the stress.
My children have done very well in PSLE largely because we do not stress them or send them to endless tuition classes. If they get behind in something or do not understand, they can approach the teachers to help. They can have as many lessons after school as they want.
THe teachers are INCREDIBLY dedicated and intelligent.
And most importantly...the education is far far better
Sport is great. If you have a sporty child, local schools offer them good sports and good competition - not the patchy expat 'can we get a team together' sport. They go to zonals, areas, and nationals with their school teams/sports. Just make sure you get a school that has a good sporting record. I am in the east and there are just soooo many good local schools here.
Having non local parents and going to a local school is the perfect balance of both worlds. They can take advantage of the brilliant local system but also have the balance to see things clearly and to take it all into perspective.
PM me if you want advice.

[sundaymorningstaple]

+1

[x9200]

Local education seems to lack an emphasis on independent and critical thinking. I am not saying it based on my experience with the local or International Schools, I have neither, but seeing "the products" of this education every single day including the uni students etc. Of course, not everybody but far too many to attach a badge of brilliancy to the system.
I've heard it's been changing and the teaching methodology is shifting from the rote learning to something allowing more conscious development of the individual's interests and thinking but I yet have to see it in the real life. Besides, this is not only about rote learning. It's about overall mentality, and even if something is changing, the generation that tries to introduce the change is the one affected so hard to believe it is already ok.
These (besides the mentioned kiasu madness) would be and are mine concerns not some urban legends on caning and such.

[katbh]

Local schools have changed SOOO much in last 10 years. And to be fair, so have schools in our home countries. I am an old fart, but yes, when I was a kid it was rote learning, the cane, repression and he quiet classroom. This has changed everywhere

What I would say that yes it is more rigorous which requires more work. BUT...the good thing about having children in the local schools, and being an expat, or from a different culture, is that the children can have more perspective on school life. Can take some things with a grain of salt and can enliven classes for the other kids.

The issue I had with International Schools, was not that they were not good, but that there was a lot of expense to get an education that was 'parent' driven. Parents and the fees they paid were always a consideration - and are certainly taken into account by teachers and management.
But it is hard to run a school with constant change over of staff and students. Consistency is hard. But if you are only here for a short time, they are welcoming, very good at settling in new kids, making the whole family feel comfortable in a new environment and of course providing an education. They also mean that if you select a school with the same system as any country you are moving to, the move to another country can be seamless.

But if you are luck us, and here for the long term, local schools are great. You make good friends who last and you have a good education that is better than world class. As a parent, it is your role to fill some of the gaps.

In an International School there are also these gaps .... but just different ones.

In no educations system can a parent just hand over responsibility to a school - trust me... i went to boarding school!

[x9200]

What I would say that yes it is more rigorous which requires more work. BUT...the good thing about having children in the local schools, and being an expat, or from a different culture, is that the children can have more perspective on school life. Can take some things with a grain of salt and can enliven classes for the other kids.

No objection on this point, but this would be YOU kind of sweeming against the current (and so for the kiasu and exams madness) not the brilliancy of the system.

The issue I had with International Schools, was not that they were not good, but that there was a lot of expense to get an education that was 'parent' driven. Parents and the fees they paid were always a consideration - and are certainly taken into account by teachers and management.

I have such concerns too. It is very expensive for most average expat houshold not on an expat package.

But it is hard to run a school with constant change over of staff and students. Consistency is hard. But if you are only here for a short time, they are welcoming, very good at settling in new kids, making the whole family feel comfortable in a new environment and of course providing an education. They also mean that if you select a school with the same system as any country you are moving to, the move to another country can be seamless.

Agree, but not sure if this will compensate for the missing parts.

But if you are luck us, and here for the long term, local schools are great. You make good friends who last and you have a good education that is better than world class. As a parent, it is your role to fill some of the gaps.

This is a very serious gap. I am not sure if I can afford my kid spending half of his school days in a place that is ignoring or neglecting one of the most important aspects of education as per my expectations towards it. And again, with such gaps the education is far from perfect. I feel, for the overall objectiveness this needs to be clearly mentioned.

I do not expect the school to take over my parental duties but this looks more like 90% of the job the schools should normally do I should do instead.
I acknowledge your other point - the changes are also in the Western countries and unfortunately they are not for a better but still having a Western uni student for a complex task I had to do a fraction of micro-management needed for a local one. This trully scares me if I think of my kid having his thinking freedom and will to explore depleted to the extents I observe around.

In an International School there are also these gaps .... but just different ones.

In no educations system can a parent just hand over responsibility to a school - trust me... i went to boarding school!

[movingtospore]

I think, before deciding on local school, spend some time here if you can. If they'll let you, visit the school that MOE says may have room for you. A lot will come down to the local population of that school, the teachers and principles, and how open they are to different thinking about education.

I have some friends who just moved their children from local to International School. They're Chinese-American, very well educated, and they got sick of the teachers telling them they didn't speak English properly AND that they didn't speak Mandarin properly. And that their son shouldn't ask questions in class.

But all of that said, there are a lot of lousy International Schools in SP. Locals schools would be heads and shoulders above those. Probably not better than the very good international schools though (aside from the expense!).

[PrimroseHill]

Like the other poster, I am too an older person I was a product of local Msian state school. Classes were big. School finished at 1.30/2pm then all the rounds of tuition began. The dedicated teachers and dedicated schools reopen their schools a fortnight prior to official school start date; just so the school kids can get ahead. We werent taught nor encourage to ask question. To query all the whys and why fors.
My daughter has had state primary in London and private/independent school in London. When she was in the state primary, there was a mixture of family - some parents that seemed shocked when their kids can barely scraped through their SATs key stage 2.
We decided not to go for state secondary, for the simple reason that our local secondary were the Millaband brothers alma mater or the soon to be demolished Maria Fedalis. Grammer schools like Henriatta Barnett gets so over subscribed its unreal.
So, we took the plunge and got DD into a local independent school with a really good reputation. This is according to what my DD told me, not from my observation, so quoting her verbatim , " at XYZ all I have to do is highlight something on my history/geography and I am almost guaranteed a 7 and I am a consistent 7 in English. Here at XYZ i Hvae to work really hard and do more research and do more in depth work for my IB."
This shows the state of the UK's GCSE.
I am not saying that the local schools here is bad or International Schools is bad eother. For my DD the interantional school is working out for her. She is studying really hard and I am really proud of her. It is working for her. The transient nature of expat kids, yeah, thats a sorry state.