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Margaret Thatcher dies aged 87

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 6:30 pm

I am reminded of a friend of mine, in fact he was my Best Man. How I love to torment him over his political hypocrisy. In fact such is the scale of his glaring internal contradiction, that he told me some years ago that he will never discuss politics with me ever again. One wonders how an intelligent adult could corner themselves quite so royally.

His parents met at art-school in the early 60s, I believe both were typically north London ‘middle middle-class’, and born into Labour voting households. Later he became an accountant, and she started an interior design company. Wind forward 30 years, and they were living in a capacious apartment in South Kensington. Summers were spent at a huge rambling old stone farmhouse in Provence (the lounge is maybe 800ft2, and open right up to the eaves 3 storeys up). And yet despite all of their later wealth and success, they still voted Labour. Their son, my friend, is a director at a Swiss bank. His lifestyle goes along in parallel with that. But, despite all of that he is still a through and through Labour voter. He despises Tory values but is making his riches under them. He could emigrate and work abroad, to perhaps somewhere with a more ‘flat’ and redistributionist society, but he has never had any desire to ‘vote his professed convictions’ with his feet. In fact at one point he was eyeing up doing quite the reverse, relocating somewhere with super-low taxes and about as far away from a flat society as might be imagined. It was at that point that the pong and p***-taking reached such a dizzying height, that he declared henceforth discussion of his politics verboten.

You say ‘The milk was a joke’. So you mean you said it in jest? Perhaps you should consider posting with the text in two colours, one for ‘this bit is serious’, and ‘this bit is a joke’, as at present it is rather confusing.

You write ‘Make a single mother with 2 children of different sexes and 1 on the way live in a two bedroom flat or pay the extra knowing she'll have to uproot her children again when they can no longer share.’ I’m unclear who you’re suggesting is ‘making’ her circumstances, beyond this single-mother soon to have three children?

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 6:39 pm

Viewpoint: What if Margaret Thatcher had never been?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22076886

I found this piece written by a historian, insightful and balanced (and that's despite the BBC in general being skewed well to the left).

p.s. I could selectively quote some spot-on paragraphs, but that would defeat the objective of 'balance' from the whole.

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Postby Hannieroo » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 7:55 pm

Plus she took my milk. :D Better?

That particular lady, no fault of her own. Not at all. No stupid finances, nothing. I am sure there are many in that position due to stupidity but also many are not and it seems unfair to penalise the genuinely in need. You judge a nation by how it treats it's vulnerable. If that means the lazy and the feckless get a share then better that than those in need going without.

Are you saying that you find my views hypocritical? Fair enough. It'd be a boring place if everyone agreed.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:42 pm

Hannieroo wrote:Plus she took my milk. :D Better?


Oh yes far :) It is a truism that the more subtle the humour (and the quality of humour correlates 100% with subtlety IMHO) the harder it is to convey it over the www without decking it our with 'Emos'.


Hannieroo wrote:That particular lady, no fault of her own. Not at all. No stupid finances, nothing. I am sure there are many in that position due to stupidity but also many are not and it seems unfair to penalise the genuinely in need.


But how do you differentiate between the two? For example there used to be a culture of young unmarried working class girls intentionally getting pregnant. In many ways that was like winning the lottery. All she had to do was go to the council, say her parents had chucked her out on the street, and the council were obliged to provide her accommodation and cash benefits, for as long as she needed it, even if that meant for life. Pop out two or three sprogs and your lifestyle is going to far better than anything you could get via going and getting a job. Not exactly incentivising socially beneficial behaviour is it? For the offspring, the cycle repeats, so this embedded underclass living 'free', is for obvious reasons referred to as 'the poverty trap'. And yet you seem to be suggesting that it should be fed even more?

hannieroo wrote:You judge a nation by how it treats it's vulnerable. If that means the lazy and the feckless get a share then better that than those in need going without.


I see it the reverse way. Rewarding the lazy and feckless, makes it a viable nay attractive lifestyle choice. Hence it creates and perpetuates the vulnerable.

And why have you chosen to live in a country that gives so little 'support' to it's poor and vulnerable?

hannieroo wrote:Are you saying that you find my views hypocritical? Fair enough. It'd be a boring place if everyone agreed.


Perish the thought, never crossed my mind!;

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Postby Hannieroo » Thu, 11 Apr 2013 11:10 pm

I am sure it did not. :D

I'm not confident quoting on here yet so bear with me.

1) You can't really differentiate without going the way of penalising children and demanding that the state controls people's reproductive choices. I'd rather benefits than that. Where I come from in the UK had the largest council estate and highest teen birth rate in Europe. You look around and you see they really do see no other options. But lack of apprenticeships, lack of opportunities and a lack of good, affordable childcare means they're probably right. If not actually right thinking. To force people further into poverty will further disenfranchise their children and it continues.

2)I assume you mean Singapore? My husband's field of work is usually found in countries far less supportive than this. I am here because his job covers Dubai to Australia and reports to the States. We did try doing it with him working from home starting at 5am to catch over here and ending at 10pm when Houston could have been reasonably assumed finished with two trips a month to the region. We never saw him and he was knackered. I am not 100% comfortable with everything I see and hear in this country but that is the same for the other countries I have lived in, including my own. Sometimes pragmatism wins over social conscience. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. I just really like my husband.

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Postby nutnut » Fri, 12 Apr 2013 5:28 pm

You know what, UK politics is a royal pain in the ass, I am so glad I don't have to deal with that any more, to think that people can hate someone who lead their country so much that they are willing to spit on her grave is sad!

When they die, maybe someone will spit on their grave and how will their family feel?

Mrs T was tough and had tough decisions to make, you can't please everyone all of the time. Better make decisions and change than let the country plunge into debt without trying to do anything!
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Postby JR8 » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 3:44 am

Hannieroo wrote:I am sure it did not. :D

I'm not confident quoting on here yet so bear with me.

1) You can't really differentiate without going the way of penalising children and demanding that the state controls people's reproductive choices.


No one is 'being penalised'? With benefits, all are being benefited, it's just relative.

The state is not 'demanding control of reproductive choices', it's just that common sense would seem to suggest:
- Have children only if you can afford it
- If you have them and can't, we're not going to hand a life of leisure and ease on a plate.


Hannieroo wrote:I'd rather benefits than that. Where I come from in the UK had the largest council estate and highest teen birth rate in Europe. You look around and you see they really do see no other options. But lack of apprenticeships, lack of opportunities and a lack of good, affordable childcare means they're probably right. If not actually right thinking. To force people further into poverty will further disenfranchise their children and it continues.


Bristol? Well, we see it differently; you see a problem seeking a solution, I see a solution perpetuating, 'ghettoising', the problem.

Hannieroo wrote:2)I assume you mean Singapore? My husband's field of work is usually found in countries far less supportive than this. I am here because his job covers Dubai to Australia and reports to the States. We did try doing it with him working from home starting at 5am to catch over here and ending at 10pm when Houston could have been reasonably assumed finished with two trips a month to the region. We never saw him and he was knackered. I am not 100% comfortable with everything I see and hear in this country but that is the same for the other countries I have lived in, including my own. Sometimes pragmatism wins over social conscience. I don't think that makes me a hypocrite. I just really like my husband.


The Three Monkeys?



Just my 2c (don't take it personally, it's late and I haven't time to put my impression in a more refined way, that's all).

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Postby Hannieroo » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 10:57 am

Hull :D Although it may well be Bristol now. When I had my youngetst I was 33 and the only women on the ward anywhere near my age were visiting grandmothers.

The problem with people having children they cannot afford - and I completely agree with you, by the way- is that if there is no help you have children who have not chosen to be born living in worse poverty. Now, yes, that might solve the problem going forward to the next generation but a huge cost. I do understand what you are saying and my husband holds exactly the same views. I just don't know how we get from where we are to where we should be without going back to the old Barnadoes thing where unwanted children spent their entire childhoods.

Sometimes hear no evil etc is the only way to do it. There are some countries I point blank would not go to because I know I'd be miserable or in jail but our agreement is that I would never be asked to. I accept and obey the laws of the land I reside in but I do not have to respect them.

I have been on the internet for a long time, I have a hide. Obviously each board has it's own etiquette but attack the post not the poster has always been a standard and that's always how I read and attempt to respond. It always makes me laugh on my usual (non expat) board how people are going hammer and tongs in the news section but are then quite happily chatting about their spring planting plans in home & garden.

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 13 Apr 2013 7:29 pm

Thanks, interesting. I conclude that state policy seeks to find a balance, but there will always be some collateral damage.

Hannieroo wrote:I have been on the internet for a long time, I have a hide. Obviously each board has it's own etiquette but attack the post not the poster has always been a standard and that's always how I read and attempt to respond. It always makes me laugh on my usual (non expat) board how people are going hammer and tongs in the news section but are then quite happily chatting about their spring planting plans in home & garden.


'Play the ball and not the man' is the ethos of most moderated adult fora, including this one. I've been on the internet since well before the web existed, and in fact when you had to write e-mails in ASCII line-code, something like:

>10 Hi Steven
>20 Regarding the rodent gene-sampling project in the Peruvian Amazon
>30 (blah blah blah)

So I appreciate why Bill Gates made his billions! And yes the psychology of the web is a wondrous thing to ponder.


p.s. Ah Hull. I've fond memories of it! I spent quite a lot of time there helping to convert a 70M/2000T trawler into a scientific research vessel. I certainly learned a few new words from the local ship-workers who we worked along-side :lol:

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Postby Hannieroo » Mon, 15 Apr 2013 8:29 am

The language is truly choice, my husband finds my myriad ways of expressing my displeasure both fascinating and disgusting in equal measure.

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Thu, 18 Apr 2013 11:56 am

The funeral yesterday struck a good balance between what she deserved from both sides.

I was pleased to see protests predicted didn't come to life, purely from a point of human respect and decency which, certainly in the UK these days, may be waning - the whole 'death parties' and Wizard of Oz references have gone over the top in this regards. One commentator did say, however; 'Let it all happen, heck, Maggie loved a fight!'

Many have complained about the cost, others about her entitlement and what would happen to following PMs and others that went before BUT the main thing, I think, most have forgotten about and that many commentators didn't emphasis enough was.......

After Churchill led Britain's contribution to the Allied Forces victory in WWII, Thatcher has been the ONLY subsequent PM to take Britain into, and win, a war.

I don't include anything NATO or UN related, purely sovereign.

As such a Ceremonial Military Funeral, as yesterday's, was fully justified. Covering the cost of the event was savings she negotiated from payments the UK was being asked to pay the EU during her terms however, it is unfortunate spending of this magnitude was required at a time austerity. I doubt anybody would have complained otherwise.

There is no need to get involved with politics or policies. On that front, however, as a young Scot at the time, I was surrounded by very strong feelings and none of them were favourable, probably justifiable at the time. Very much in hindsight, however, I can see what she was trying to do, what she did achieve for the benefit of the UK and, maybe, more importantly the leadership that sorely lacks these days. Overall I believe she left the UK in a better position when she left office than when she started.
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'

SIR Stirling Moss OBE

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 18 Apr 2013 12:25 pm

Nice eulogy. +1

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Postby BillyB » Fri, 19 Apr 2013 3:41 pm

Here's a good article that expels many of the myths regarding MT's premiership. I forgot to post this the other week.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/je ... r-exploded

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Postby JR8 » Sat, 20 Apr 2013 1:16 am

BillyB wrote:Here's a good article that expels many of the myths regarding MT's premiership. I forgot to post this the other week.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/je ... r-exploded


Cheers Bunter.

That was interesting. You get so used to her being sterotyped that it is refreshing to take a step back, which the linked article allowed.


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