Commission to Agent

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zzm9980
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Post by zzm9980 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 1:58 pm

Sergei82 wrote:I still do not understand why. I used an agent to get my current tenancy agreement. I did not sign up to not having to deal with the landlord directly ever in my life. We (me+landlord) both can scrap our real estate agents after the contract is over - we're done with our contractual obligations. Is it illegal? After that we're free to do whatever we want. Isn't it?

Or you want to say that an agent is a leech that sucks me and landlord for the lifetime???
What does the agreement you signed with your agent say? Many TAs have "renewal" clauses in them. I'm not quite sure the point of them, since it doesn't guarantee the rate, but they're still there. I believe most agent's contracts will require you to pay commission again if you renew under that term.

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Post by Sergei82 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:12 pm

I still do not understand what would prevent me not to refuse to renew and sign my own contract with the landlord. At which point it is illegal? Me and landlord fulfilled our contractual obligations, good-bye agent.
Yes, I want to shaft the agent. I do not see anything illegal in this. I do not owe anything to anybody.

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Post by x9200 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:25 pm

Sergei82 wrote:I still do not understand what would prevent me not to refuse to renew and sign my own contract with the landlord.
Nothing, but if there is only for this sole purpose and you have nothing else to back up your case this will likely be seen by the court as de facto renewal. What always counts is the spirit of the agreement/clause and not a different name.

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Post by zzm9980 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:34 pm

Sergei82 wrote:I still do not understand what would prevent me not to refuse to renew and sign my own contract with the landlord. At which point it is illegal? Me and landlord fulfilled our contractual obligations, good-bye agent.
Yes, I want to shaft the agent. I do not see anything illegal in this. I do not owe anything to anybody.
From your agent's point of view:

The agent assisted you in locating a property and negotiating a TA. For this service, you agreed to pay the agent $XX per year you live there under said TA. Generally $XX is half a month's rent, plus GST. You most likely paid this up-front. Now you are choosing to renewal the lease under the current TA terms for one more year. You need to pay that $XX now because (at least conceptually), the agent performed the above services for you in locating this unit which you are happy enough with to stay for another year. His previous work saved you the time of having to find a new unit this time around.

That's all devil's advocate stuff. I'm in the same boat as you, and plan to do whatever it takes to not pay the agent if I stay in this unit. I can't find a copy of anything I signed with him. I plan to email him about three months before renewal and ask for a copy of our agreement. I'd rather move (if even to just another unit in this estate) and pay Shalom than pay them for nothing.

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Post by Sergei82 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:44 pm

x9200 wrote:...if there is only for this sole purpose and you have nothing else to back up your case this will likely be seen by the court as de facto renewal....
How can it be seen. Court's opinion? Do opinions count? Fact: new contract. Everybody who has their opinion can queue up to go to hell. Where am I breaking the law?

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Post by Sergei82 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:47 pm

zzm9980 wrote: From your agent's point of view...
He will be expressing his point of view to his grandmother. Where am I breaking the law? Where is the explicit contract breach?

I wonder, is it really true that these leeches earn over SGD 13K per month on average?

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Post by the lynx » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:51 pm

Woah woah... Steady, Sergei, you sound pretty vehement over here recently! :)

It is Thursday, have a beer tonight and chill for tomorrow is a public holiday.

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Post by Sergei82 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 2:56 pm

the lynx wrote:Woah woah... Steady, Sergei, you sound pretty vehement over here recently! :)

It is Thursday, have a beer tonight and chill for tomorrow is a public holiday.
the lynx, do you think it is the best idea to off-top when I am angry? :)
You better join the fight!

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Post by JR8 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 3:31 pm

Sergei82 wrote: How can it be seen. Court's opinion? Do opinions count? Fact: new contract. Everybody who has their opinion can queue up to go to hell. Where am I breaking the law?
I used to think that law was completely black and white. It's written down, so something must either be right or wrong. Then I took a case to court and got a big surprise. The 'judge' has huge latitude to interpret a case, the law is merely a skeleton to build the body of a judgement around.

So as X9 suggested, being in breach of the spirit of the law is probably at best running extremely close to the wind. But if the arrangement is to simply continue living there and try and avoid the agents fee, then it is a sham arrangement, and any court would probably find as such.

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Post by JR8 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 3:49 pm

Wd40 wrote: And JR8, having a civil dispute at CASE and even losing it, I dont think is an immigration offence, that will put you at risk of losing your EP.
CASE had not even come into the discussion when I replied. Both you and I were talking about the SCT.

And I did not suggest a judgement against you is an 'immigration offence'. What I said was it will be 'on your record', and I would have thought ICA/MoM are likely to do a routine check on your record when you apply to renew/change a pass.
Wd40 wrote: Also the chances of going to a proper court for an amount of what, 1k in agent fee?, is virtually NIL.
That is precisely what the SCT is for!
Wd40 wrote: So I maintain my stance that the worst case scenario for the OP is that he will just eventually have to pay the agent commision. Nothing More.
And I disagree with you, maintaining my original points (time for preparation and physical attendance, stress, costs of going to SCT, risk of costs awarded against you).

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Post by Sergei82 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 4:08 pm

JR8 wrote:But if the arrangement is to simply continue living there and try and avoid the agents fee, then it is a sham arrangement, and any court would probably find as such.
Why it is a sham? Am I not able to live where I want within the given country according to the constitution/law/human rights? And I want to avoid agents fee. Explicitly. Who obliged me to pay it and for what? Only to avoid the agent suing me? That is blackmailing!

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 4:29 pm

The only way you are going to win that in a court of law or even at the SCT is if you do not renew AND you move to an interim location including the removal of all your possessions to another location for a period of time. At that point, you can then sign any sort of contract you want with the landlord, completely bypassing the former agent. But unless you quit the property formally (completely removing you and your belongings for a period of time) I don't think you stand a ghost of a chance. The spirit of the law applies there just like our ban on advertising on this site. We moderate in the spirit of the law. If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, it's probably a duck......
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by x9200 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 4:37 pm

Sergei, what you are (hypothetically) trying to do is to take a gun, paint it in pink and say this is a hello-kitty stick. Nobody will believe you that this is a hello kitty stick. As simple as this. You have to do a bit better than this to show that your new contract is not the renewal of the old one. Technically the renewal IS a new contract so there is not like a sharp line separating these two.

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Post by zzm9980 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 4:37 pm

Sergei82 wrote:
JR8 wrote:But if the arrangement is to simply continue living there and try and avoid the agents fee, then it is a sham arrangement, and any court would probably find as such.
Why it is a sham? Am I not able to live where I want within the given country according to the constitution/law/human rights? And I want to avoid agents fee. Explicitly. Who obliged me to pay it and for what? Only to avoid the agent suing me? That is blackmailing!
Did you sign a separate agreement with your agent? Or is this in your TA? IMO if you were to sign a significantly different TA, not just renew the original, you may not be in breach.

So go find a bunch of mutually agreeable conditions that didn't exist previously to throw into a new TA, and sign away. If your landlord is cool, I'm sure you can come up with a bunch of stuff that will never apply but alters the document in a significant way. A prohibition on religious worship in the bathroom, or livestock in the utility room. Require six-months notice to hire a maid (if you never intend to). Just make up a bunch of non-sense.

I hope my posting this isn't considered conspiracy to commit fraud :P

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Post by JR8 » Thu, 28 Mar 2013 4:38 pm

Sergei82 wrote:Why it is a sham?
--------------------------------------------------------

'Sham - legal definition

A counterfeit; something that is not what it seems or appears to be; a fake; a person pretending to be something or someone other than who she really is.
adj. Deceitful or dishonest
.'

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