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earthfriendly
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Postby earthfriendly » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:04 am

Yeah I did. The number in my brain was messed up. I hear you.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:05 am

earthfriendly wrote:Hello guys, can you name me another country in the world where the govt has the audacity to say they will increase the population 50 % (4 to 6 million) via import of foreigners? And when it does, how do you think the local citizens will take it?

How many other countries do not have ANY natural resources other than it's people (that are in super low TFR AND super high greying population simultaneously).

USA also suffers from declining birth rate and they counter the problem via immigration, albeit not at such a rampant rate as SG. SG need foreigners not just to help with the declining birth rate but they will infuse the country with new ideas and talent, making it a more vibrant place.

Yes, we counter it with immigration, the US' TFR is still up around 1.8~1.9, pretty close to the magic 2.0. so we don't need to import as many to maintain the status quo. Also, retirement age in the US is 67 and most work until they are 70 so the workforce is still active for longer. Additionally, we also have our own resources so don't need to entirely base our economy on a 'Middleman' concept like Singapore does (buys resources and exports goods as opposed to extracting their own resources and going through the entire extraction to finished product cycle).

When you look back at history, when countries (e.g. China and Japan's closed door policy to halt foreign aggression) closed their doors to the world, they did not progress with the rest of the world and they end up moving backward. And the modern day extreme examples of N Korea, Myanmar, parts of middle east.

Yep, have to agree with you there. And, the local population getting their way will eventually lead to self destruction and put the Little Red Dot as part of Malaysia again if it isn't careful as Johor will suck the Red Dot dry if they get their stuff together.

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Postby ariyo » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 1:51 pm

SMS: I have a degree from an ecole in France, lets not start pigeon holing here...

After sergei's thought provoking post I thought it would be wise if we just let this slowly drift to sleep as many issues here could be as divisive and damaging if not conveyed properly.

I agree that the recent trend in pinoy bashing is rather alarming too. That came out of nowhere and is the recent fad online. From what i see, it seems to be the same group of people who are doing the bashing. I really do hope that they are teenagers with teenage maturity but on the flipside, local forums do have mature people counteracting the racism.

And yes, because I travel a fair bit, I am exposed to some instances of racism. As painful as the insults were, I am equally convinced that ignorance and hatred stems a lot from the socioeconomic health of the particular regions.

In any case, it seems that the wheels are already in motion and the inevitable will come soon enough. Lets jsut stay positive shall we?

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Postby Sloc » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 2:35 pm

ariyo wrote: I really do hope that they are teenagers with teenage maturity but on the flipside, local forums do have mature people counteracting the racism.

Unfortunately, that is not entirely true. I personally know of several highly educated locals (Masters/PhD) in their mid-late 30s from the local universities who hold similar openly racist views. Not that education makes a better person, but just letting you know....

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Postby Sloc » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 2:51 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: And, the local population getting their way will eventually lead to self destruction and put the Little Red Dot as part of Malaysia again if it isn't careful as Johor will suck the Red Dot dry if they get their stuff together.


Yeah, if the Malaysians actually got their s**t together and ran a proper system up there, they could clean SG's clock in a few years. But they seem content to wallow in their internal quarrels, corruption, Bumiputra and other nonsense.

Alarmist as it sounds, re-absorption into Malaysia seems to be pretty much inevitable in the long run*. SG's going to get squeezed by India, China, Malaysia, Thailand and Viet Nam in its various economic sectors..no easy solution to this that I, as a layman, can see. Perhaps the smarter people in the civil service/gahmen have something up their sleeve.

*Would Malaysia want SG back, is another question. Would they? What do they stand to gain from it?

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Postby ariyo » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 3:00 pm

Sloc: I hold the view that Singapore will eventually return to the peninsula up north but it is a rather heritic thing to voice out in my circle. City states are an abnormally in the grand scheme of things and this little island bears a remarkable similarity with the Venetian merchants of old.

Perhaps, some day in my childrens' life, they will get to see a reunion. When Malaysia has a fair and equitable system with prosperous resources, why would people be less inclined to join them?

* The exceeding cosy relation between Malaysia and Singapore's government may be sign of things to come.

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 3:06 pm

ariyo wrote:
After sergei's thought provoking post I thought it would be wise if we just let this slowly drift to sleep as many issues here could be as divisive and damaging if not conveyed properly.

Lets jsut stay positive shall we?


you have 15 posts ( all of which are in this thread) and you posted with the intention of stirring the pot among the locals.
when things got out of hand you want to beat a hasty retreat? typical attitude for a Singaporean isn't it?
We are all positive here on this board, don't you worry.
To get there early is on time and showing up on time is late

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Postby ariyo » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 3:52 pm

I would love to carry on with everyone here :)

However I was naive enough to assume that everyone would discuss with a level head, forgeting that some here have been on the wrong side of policy making for years and have gotten pretty emotional over them. Sergei's advice was a good advice especially when it seemed that I would be doing more harm than good (stirring the pot).

typical attitude for a Singaporean isn't it?


It would be nice if the pot could call the kettle black and get away with it

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Postby x9200 » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 5:11 pm

I don't expect anybody is really surprised with your post. Yes, you've been pretty naive but not really in respect of what you have mentioned. You failed to address majority of concerns raised in responses of your opponents and there is not really any elegant way you can escape from loosing face. I am afraid your credibility is gone.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 5:19 pm

The only thing naive about your posts, is your thinking that only you know it all.

Curious though, are you saying you do not have a local degree at all?

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Postby movingtospore » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 5:32 pm

Sloc wrote:
ariyo wrote: I really do hope that they are teenagers with teenage maturity but on the flipside, local forums do have mature people counteracting the racism.

Unfortunately, that is not entirely true. I personally know of several highly educated locals (Masters/PhD) in their mid-late 30s from the local universities who hold similar openly racist views. Not that education makes a better person, but just letting you know....


I personally have been in meetings, with really (really) high up Singaporeans, who told other really high up foreign reps (not me, I'm just a hack) that Sing's whole problem is that they have too many Indians and the @#$# malays just have too many babies. :? It was really embarrassing - but the worst part was they had no idea...

You hear lots of similar drivel in many developed countries, but usually from the lowest of the low, etc., not those at the top.

The racism starts at the top - in my personal view it underpins the whole society and is a big part of its undoing right now. It's unfortunate, because I think Singapore had the opportunity to become a really great, international city that attracts the best of the best, whether they're from India or Russia or anywhere in between.

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Postby movingtospore » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 5:38 pm

Ariyo I know we've all been quite hard on you - but I think relative to lots of locals I've seen show up on this board - you've actually got some interesting things to say and been willing to have a go. So thanks for showing up and having a chat without resorting to the usual hysterics. We aren't the politest lot at times but it's in a large part because this is a very frustrating place to live in these days.

And I think most expats here are pretty sympathetic to the plight of the average Singaporean. We just bring a different perspective -a global perspective - and suspect that you're all headed nowhere good at the moment because of how this is all being managed.

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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 5:50 pm

Yes, ariyo, doesn't matter how this conversation ends - good or bad way for you, at least I am on your side - guarantee. :)

SMS is also a good guy, a bit emotional sometimes. ;)

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 9:24 pm

QRM wrote:Have you been to that history of SG museum in Sentosa? I went with my kids school trip what so scary is the little film at the beginning all happy clapper stuff saying we all love each other, everyone like to hug each other no mater what colour they are. They have three narrators and 101 guesses what they are 1. Indian, 1. Malay 1. Chinese..

Now what are you suppose to think if you go to a restaurant and on the front cover of the menu they proudly proclaim " We do not have a rat problem in the kitchen" ....


No I haven't been to that museum. It all sounds rather ghastly from what you describe.

Your 2nd point:Precisely! :lol:

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 15 Mar 2013 9:38 pm

Barnsley wrote:Is it because the queue is too long? :D

I did go to Gerrys Grill last night though and it was very good.


Better than their website then! I had a look at it and it is one of those 'so fancy, you can hardly get it to work at all' lay-outs.

[At least that was my experience using Opera as my browser].


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