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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:15 am

ariyo wrote: Furthermore, Singapore is a republic, not a true democracy...



What on earth are you talking about!?

One more loony post and you'll be going into my poster-loony-bin!

:roll:

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:18 am

ariyo wrote:Wd40: The man with the track record and the most of his exemplary ministers are no longer in making decisions. The interim batch does not have a good record. The sweet spot for you is not to be confused with the sweet spot for citizens.

It is also fair to compare between different batches of government in Singapore instead of comparing with different countries. Apples and oranges comparisons are rarely objective. I do not want to offend anyone, but we expect our government to perform to their best and it is one of our strong points. Furthermore, Singapore is a republic, not a true democracy...you may want to read more on that.

JR8: You are right, I type too long.


There is no difference between the way the current ministers are functioning from the previous ones. The only difference is now there is social media and the current generation of SGn kids think its fashionable to revolt and think that they have a voice and say and hence they should make a change for the sake of it.

They have forgotten that people in India, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia etc all have a voice and choice to excercise their vote and probably more freedom of speech and expression than SGns yet are they better off? So what guarantee is it that it will work here?

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:31 am

Wd40 wrote:The only difference is now there is social media and the current generation of SGn kids think its fashionable to revolt and think that they have a voice and say and hence they should make a change for the sake of it.


Let us not forget, that it was not that long ago that 'social media' was banned and illegal in Singapore.

You could say it was illegal until 'Moses could no longer hold back the tides'.

The internet used to be illegal unless you were a bank trading floor, or embassy.

Nowadays, it is only available via state-controlled/owned companies (scared issit?)

Locals revolting? Haha... I've never heard of a local revolting his way out of a paper bag: Apart from those who end up jailed and/or in penury for having done so.


Edit: Corrected for typo
Last edited by JR8 on Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:32 am

JR8 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:This was only possible because you had a great visionary leader who didnt listen to masses and did his own thing


Just like North Korea eh? :roll:


Yeah, he is visionary but an evil.

A better example will be the current sultan of Brunei. I would rather have such leaders than the traditional democracies.

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 1:51 am

Wd40 wrote:A better example will be the current sultan of Brunei. I would rather have such leaders than the traditional democracies.


Then you favour the nanny-state, and being ordered what to do. Why do you value passive dictatorship, more highly than democracy?

- 'This leader is ok'

- 'Oh dear this leader is sending Jews/Malays/Indians' off to the gas chambers!

Be very cautious before ceding control to the inevitably self-interested.



p.s. Nothing here is a comment on the Sultan of Brunei. I haven't met him, but second-hand I've heard he's a really top-hole gent.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 2:17 am

I am not saying that passive dictatorship is good or democracy is bad.
I am just saying that democracy isnt always successful everywhere, like the examples I have given and dictatorship does have a few cases of success.

Bottomline is dont fix something that aint broken. Known devil is better than unknown angel ;)

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 3:06 am

Wd40 wrote:I am not saying that passive dictatorship is good or democracy is bad.
I am just saying that democracy isnt always successful everywhere, like the examples I have given and dictatorship does have a few cases of success.

Bottomline is dont fix something that aint broken. Known devil is better than unknown angel ;)


Ok, so where has democracy been unsuccessful?

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 7:38 am

JR8 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:This was only possible because you had a great visionary leader who didnt listen to masses and did his own thing


Just like North Korea eh? :roll:

No JR8, just opposite. That's the whole point :) Why go with democracy by the book if under the circumstances something else is better? If you were an average SG Joe, where would you be more happy, here or in Hong Kong? :) I think this is what Singapore would look like adopting a different ruling model. And HK has more land.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 8:28 am

ariyo wrote:You feel that foreigner related problems are the main issue but i reassure you that over-crowding and other foreigner related problems are symptoms and not the cause. If people had plenty of appropriately paid jobs, living space, affordable dwellings, they would have less to complain about. Xenophobia is as much an economic problem reinforced by what people perceive on a day to day basis. If people have it good and are experiencing a comfortable life with aspirations to strive for progress, would they be convinced otherwise?

The job comes always first as it allows stability and wealth. Anything else is secondary because it can be obtained or circumvented with money. Nobody would give a *beep* about overcrowded spaces with pile of money in her or his pocket, especially that objectively it is not really that overcrowded. Also, nobody would give a *beep* about 10x MRT lines with 1000k more MRT cars running there if he had no job; ergo, the only place where the foreigners matter is the job market and nothing spectacular is going to change in this area in the coming years or the economy will be affected. This also means that anything positive done towards the infrastructure will unlikely change the current anti-foreigner sentiments.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 9:05 am

JR8 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:I am not saying that passive dictatorship is good or democracy is bad.
I am just saying that democracy isnt always successful everywhere, like the examples I have given and dictatorship does have a few cases of success.

Bottomline is dont fix something that aint broken. Known devil is better than unknown angel ;)


Ok, so where has democracy been unsuccessful?


Failure or Success is relative. Since we are talking in the SG context. There are numerous democracies that have fared poorly in comparison to SG.

Now SG folks want to "teach the gahmen a lesson" for not "listening" to them. They want to excercise their vote and make it count etc etc.

My point is other democracies where people have higher levels of freedom of expression and press and the gahmen pretends to listen to them, are doing worse than SG.

A country is only as good as its leaders are. Democracy or not.

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Postby ariyo » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 9:37 am

x9200, I see where you are coming from but perhaps you can consider some areas where foreigners are recently also heavily involved: Housing, transport, national security, education.

With people setting up roots here, their childrens' and parents' welfare, their quality of life and future aspirations play a big part too.

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Postby AndrewV » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:58 am

thanks for your well articulated posts Ariyo, personally I am enjoying reading your train of thoughts and see where you are coming from...

I agree on the "symptoms" argument, The government needs to re-look at certain companies employment policies first.

- A search for a suitable candidate should start in Singapore, with companies being allowed to only bring in talent if no suitable candidate was found (Employ systems similar to the US, Canada and Australia).

- Prevent forming of enclaves and "clicks" in offices. It is well known that once certain races become managers, they slowly work on getting rid of the locals so that they can bring in their lackeys. This should be strongly addressed.

Take into consideration these 2 aspects and it is fair game.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:10 am

AndrewV wrote:
- Prevent forming of enclaves and "clicks" in offices. It is well known that once certain races become managers, they slowly work on getting rid of the locals so that they can bring in their lackeys. This should be strongly addressed.

Take into consideration these 2 aspects and it is fair game.


Wonder how many companies are like that in Singapore? Oh! All of them, right? That's why for even western MNC's the Chinese HR managers insist on mandarin speaking candidates even though they don't have any business in China. Come on, AndrewV, THINK!

](*,)

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Postby AndrewV » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:32 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
AndrewV wrote:
- Prevent forming of enclaves and "clicks" in offices. It is well known that once certain races become managers, they slowly work on getting rid of the locals so that they can bring in their lackeys. This should be strongly addressed.

Take into consideration these 2 aspects and it is fair game.


Wonder how many companies are like that in Singapore? Oh! All of them, right? That's why for even western MNC's the Chinese HR managers insist on mandarin speaking candidates even though they don't have any business in China. Come on, AndrewV, THINK!

](*,)


yup, and all this is unacceptable! if the country insists on meritocracy being the modus operandi, then it must put in place laws which make it difficult for companies to act otherwise. If this is left unegulated, we will have enclaves within a company (which I already see happening), just because the manager is uncomfortable to manage Singaporeans.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:03 pm

ariyo wrote:x9200, I see where you are coming from but perhaps you can consider some areas where foreigners are recently also heavily involved: Housing, transport, national security, education.


So what should be done in all these areas in respect to the foreigners?


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