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Landlord wants to sell half-way through contract

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therat
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Postby therat » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 3:48 pm

anca wrote:
Wd40 wrote:
therat wrote:
Wd40 wrote:

Secondly, granted that the HDB flat is leased out by HDB to the owner for 99 years or shorter period and now the owner has leased it out to the tenant for 1 year and there is contract in place which is registered with the HDB(OP please confirm if the tenancy agreement is registered with HDB)

So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


I don't know hat registered with HDB means, I have a "certificate of stamp duty" - is that it? It is a 2 years contract Dec 2011 - Dec 2013


Since you had a "certificate of stamp duty", don't worry. The unit is approval by HDB to the landlord that he can sublet the whole unit.

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 4:52 pm

therat wrote:There is a different between private property and HDB.

Private property can sell with tenancy but HDB cannot.

Yes, you need to move out if the HDB is sold.
Your TA will be void.

I think what you mean is that he will have no rights to occupy the premises but IMHO the LL is still responsible for all the damages resulting from his actions. In other words, TA will not be void, simply the LL will not be able to deliver what he legally promised.

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Re: Landlord wants to sell half-way through contract

Postby JR8 » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 4:58 pm

anca wrote:Hi, We have a lease contract for our current appartement until December 2013, however we received today a call from the agent saying that the owner would want to sell and asks us to either buy or leave in 3 months!
Is this legal? There's nothing mentionned in the contract about this.

We've made a lot of investements in this house, even bought air-con, renovated/ painted, so don't want to leave.


You seem to have reached some kind of resolution on your question. However your question struck me as 'asking you to leave', to which you can simply reply 'no'.

However if they are demanding that you leave, what you could do is ask the agent on what grounds they are relying. I.e. what in the Tenancy Agreement or statute-law allows them to terminate you. Put the burden on them, rather than sweating it out yourself.

It is perfectly reasonable that a person relying on a contractual clause, or law, tell you specifically which clause or law they are relying on.

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Re: Landlord wants to sell half-way through contract

Postby anca » Sat, 23 Feb 2013 5:10 pm

JR8 wrote:However if they are demanding that you leave, what you could do is ask the agent on what grounds they are relying. I.e. what in the Tenancy Agreement or statute-law allows them to terminate you. Put the burden on them, rather than sweating it out yourself.


You're very right and I was just talking to my husband to do that. But you know how it is, better safe than sorry, have some time to act on this if indeed true.

But thank you to everyone for all the guidance, guess I enter-ed panic mode earlier, but with all your replies and reading online I feal more re-assured. Will post back in this thread once the whole thing gets figured-out, to let you know the outcome.

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Postby therat » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:29 am

Wd40 wrote:So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


May I know do you had any proof to support your statement?

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:37 am

OP you should argue with your landlord to pay you some sort of compensation.
There was a similar case where the owner wanted to sell the house with a tenant in it.
The landlord decided to compensate the tenant by paying back double the deposit money, finding alternate housing and paying to move the tenants belongings from one house to another. It seems too good to be true but I feel since you are obviously going to be disadvantaged you should stick your heels in and ask them to compensate you suitably.

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Postby nakatago » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 4:49 pm

therat wrote:
Wd40 wrote:So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


May I know do you had any proof to support your statement?


If there's nothing explicit in the TA about preventing the landlord from selling before a lease expires, the HDB would just reply with the trademark Singapore "not my problem" response.

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 7:33 pm

I have sold a property with a tenant in situ.

It was simple enough, I sold it subject to (i.e. with) the tenancy and tenant in place. The flat sold to an investor/landlord, so for him it was perfect, and all the tenant had to do was change her standing order.

I go back to my earlier point, you can't (as a landlord) just summarily terminate a contract, you have to have contractual grounds (for example non-payment of rent, causing noise-nuisance 'out of hours' to neighbours, using the premises for immoral or illegal purposes, and so on).

It is for the landlord to explain any grounds they have upon which to terminate you early. So whilst wishing to understand the law of 'Landlord & Tenant', I'd in parallel ask the landlord what their Grounds are.

The below links might provide you with some general background information. They are sites based upon UK 'Landlord and Tenant' law; but they are relevant as a lot of Singaporean law is based upon UK law. [So consider the principles involved and represented, to get a solid feel for the direction of the wind, and then if necessary dig for the specific Singaporean laws].


http://www.landlords.org.uk/library/ten ... harassment

http://www.landlordaction.co.uk/site.php

Good luck, and keep us updated on how it goes.



p.s. Another option is to get a solicitor/lawyer to write a 'heavy artillery' (i.e. cease/desist/suggestion of harassment and possible civil action if it continues) letter to the landlord. It might cost you half an hour of the lawyer's time, but it might just be enough to get the landlord off your back.

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Postby therat » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 8:30 pm

nakatago wrote:
therat wrote:
Wd40 wrote:So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


May I know do you had any proof to support your statement?


If there's nothing explicit in the TA about preventing the landlord from selling before a lease expires, the HDB would just reply with the trademark Singapore "not my problem" response.


Thanks for the reply nakatago.

I specially ask this question to Wd40 because he sound so confident.

May be I should quote his word and rephrase abit.

Do you have any proof that a owner has no right to sell the HDB if he wants to sell the house? If you have the proof show me, or else its just bullshit to me

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Postby nakatago » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 8:36 pm

therat wrote:
nakatago wrote:
therat wrote:
Wd40 wrote:So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


May I know do you had any proof to support your statement?


If there's nothing explicit in the TA about preventing the landlord from selling before a lease expires, the HDB would just reply with the trademark Singapore "not my problem" response.


Thanks for the reply nakatago.

I specially ask this question to Wd40 because he sound so confident.

May be I should quote his word and rephrase abit.

Do you have any proof that a owner has no right to sell the HDB if he wants to sell the house? If you have the proof show me, or else its just bullshit to me


If it's not in black and white, the landlord's agent will just try to weasel his way to make you move out. Like I said, HDB will be of no help. You can try asking a lawyer like JR8 suggests but that's UK--I don't know if it's worth the trouble in Singapore. You can try standing your ground but you better have leverage if you don't have anything explicitly in print.

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 8:54 pm

nakatago wrote:You can try asking a lawyer like JR8 suggests but that's UK--I don't know if it's worth the trouble in Singapore. You can try standing your ground but you better have leverage if you don't have anything explicitly in print.



Just to clarify:
My point was that
- A lot of Landlord and Tenant law (and the general principles of renting) in Singapore, derive from UK law.
- Giving a landlord (or any other 'hectoring' party) a solicitors heavy-artillery works just as well in the UK as in SG, or elsewhere. It is simply communicating that you are informed and have already made recourse to legal channels: usually warning enough for the casual chancer to back right off and behave.

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:22 pm

therat wrote:
nakatago wrote:
therat wrote:
Wd40 wrote:So the owner has no right to sell the HDB, before the contract is over.


May I know do you had any proof to support your statement?


If there's nothing explicit in the TA about preventing the landlord from selling before a lease expires, the HDB would just reply with the trademark Singapore "not my problem" response.


Thanks for the reply nakatago.

I specially ask this question to Wd40 because he sound so confident.

May be I should quote his word and rephrase abit.

Do you have any proof that a owner has no right to sell the HDB if he wants to sell the house? If you have the proof show me, or else its just bullshit to me


The normal expectation when someone rents out his house and signs a contract is that the contract must be honored and he cannot break the contract unless there is some clause in the contract specifically mentioning so.

Now what you are(or were) saying is out of the ordinary and if such thing exists you should be able to prove it in written, somewhere.

Normal expected things dont need to be proven for example if you say sky is blue, nobody will ask you to prove it. But suddenly if you come and say the sky is green, then you need to prove it. :lol:

The reason I mentioned in my 1st reply that you speak like a local is because you have this entitlement attitude that because you own the house you can do whatever you want, even ask the tenant to leave in the middle of the contract if you suddenly change your mind and plan to sell it.

I also don't understand what made you suddenly change your stance when the op said he has the certificate of stamp duty. Did you assume that he was illegally renting it? Even if that is so you should have mentioned it in you initial reply that subject to certificate of stamp duty, the owner cannot force him to leave the house. :roll:

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:21 pm

And everybody need to remember that if is an HDB Flat, then all rules of any country do not apply. HDB has their own rules which are sacrosanct and do not follow either British or Singapore norm laws as pertains to leases and sales. Good example is the fact that in Singapore, your HDB flat is exempt from any Bankruptcy proceedings. So, it would behoove one to check directly with the HDB before going off half-cocked.

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Postby Wd40 » Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:04 am

Lets talk of another scenario. A HDB flat is rented out by a PR to a tenant and a contract is in place and fully approved. Now if the owner decides to give up his PR and return back the flat to the HDB, even then, the tenant on the basis of the contract can sue the landlord and get compensated for the breach of contract.

The OP's scenario is much more simplistic and the fact that the flat is the HDB or condo, doesnt even matter as far as the tenants rights from the owner or the owner rights from the tenant is concerned. What matters is whether the contract is valid or not. Once the contract has been validated then both the owner and the tenant are liable to abide by it. If one party breaks the contract the other party can claim for compensation.

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Postby therat » Mon, 25 Feb 2013 9:23 am

Found this.

http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10323p.nsf ... enDocument
Disputes Between Subtenants and Flat Owners

Matters relating to subletting tenancy such as amount of rental, payment/forfeiture of deposits, right to terminate tenancy, periods of subletting, etc. are private matters between owners and their subtenants. HDB will not mediate if there is a dispute between owners and their subtenants on these matters. Hence, flat owners and subtenants are advised to read and understand all the terms and conditions in the tenancy agreement carefully before signing it.


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