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Is it really overcrowded over here?

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iamsen
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Is it really overcrowded over here?

Postby iamsen » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 7:16 pm

I've been keeping shut on this the whole time but, seriously, is it?

If we're talking just number of people in a certain amount of space, NY has like 12 million people living in 780 sqm. Tokyo has between 8~13 million in roughly the same amount of space. I don't have the exact numbers but it's about there from stuff I've been googling through the past week.

I've not been to NY, but I honestly didn't find Tokyo crowded. Now, SG is no Tokyo. It's homogenous from end to end whereas each section of Tokyo has its own particular flavour and crowd, which admittedly makes it more fun and also helps spread the crowd around.

If it's just number of people within an area, I honestly do not find it crowded. Yet.

The infastructure though, is sorely lacking for the current population, let alone any further increase.

Property, the pricing and availability of, is something that sorely needs fixing. Less central planning, more reasonable pricing. True, proper subsidsed public housing cheaply available for the masses. Make them small, one rooms or two. Shared facilities, whatever, there're lots of solutions available as long as the authorities are willing to abandon the notion that every 'family unit' must lease an apartment.

Not really something I've thought about that much, nor bothered enough to search for any concrete numbers besides the random spur of the moment google and forget stuff. It's just an overall feeling I have.

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Postby taxico » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 7:41 pm

infrastructure spending has not kept pace with developments in all areas as short term profits are important for companies spun off by the government and operated by government scholars.

the COE system was not tweaked gradually and people feel like there're now more cars than parking lots and jams on the road regularly.

perhaps it's the semblance of over-crowding - singapore can still reclaim land to make more room...

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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 7:50 pm

taxico wrote:infrastructure spending has not kept pace with developments in all areas as short term profits are important for companies spun off by the government and operated by government scholars.

the COE system was not tweaked gradually and people feel like there're now more cars than parking lots and jams on the road regularly.

perhaps it's the semblance of over-crowding - singapore can still reclaim land to make more room...


I actually feel like there is plenty of room to build more housing, I see it all over the place. Of course we want to keep some trees and nature, but there are random large empty lots in between buildings in lots of places.

The only time I personally feel 'overcrowded' is traffic in certain areas at certain times, and same with MRT in certain areas at certain times. Pedestrian areas and malls being crowded is more the result of ignorant and spatially challenged people walking around constrained areas. Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"

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Postby taxico » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:00 pm

i agree. but whether they should be left as empty green fields or a mall... it's the govt's call really. they own most of the plots we see.

singaporeans don't prefer running in or lying on the grass (god forbid, it's DIRTY!) - they prefer jostling about in a crowded mall...

so like how leeky the money talks about expensive fireworks which the government has no choice but to pay for every year... because singaporeans like it.

edit:

so like how leeky the MONKEY talks about expensive fireworks which the government has no choice but to pay for every year... because singaporeans like it.

leeky the monkey leeky the monkey leeky the monkey. not money.
Last edited by taxico on Tue, 19 Feb 2013 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby movingtospore » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 8:01 am

zzm9980 wrote:
taxico wrote:infrastructure spending has not kept pace with developments in all areas as short term profits are important for companies spun off by the government and operated by government scholars.

the COE system was not tweaked gradually and people feel like there're now more cars than parking lots and jams on the road regularly.

perhaps it's the semblance of over-crowding - singapore can still reclaim land to make more room...


I actually feel like there is plenty of room to build more housing, I see it all over the place. Of course we want to keep some trees and nature, but there are random large empty lots in between buildings in lots of places.

The only time I personally feel 'overcrowded' is traffic in certain areas at certain times, and same with MRT in certain areas at certain times. Pedestrian areas and malls being crowded is more the result of ignorant and spatially challenged people walking around constrained areas. Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"


I often feel the overcrowding is mostly due to bad design choices and the never-ending, poorly planned construction projects. If you block 3/4 lanes randomly every block or two there will be traffic congestion. If you dig the same road up 5 times in 3 months it will cause problems. If you decide to build both a rail line and redo to the water canals down bukit timah rd at the same time, then yep, the road will be chaos.

Or malls with bizarrely narrow walkways, tunnels, etc. And then using up vast tracts if land for things nobody ever seems to use eg/ some of the national service clubs. Manhattan is vastly more crowded than SP and yet, just seems to work better. I just don't get it. 4 years here and no further ahead than when I arrived in understanding some of the logic.

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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 9:37 am

movingtospore wrote:I often feel the overcrowding is mostly due to bad design choices and the never-ending, poorly planned construction projects. If you block 3/4 lanes randomly every block or two there will be traffic congestion. If you dig the same road up 5 times in 3 months it will cause problems. If you decide to build both a rail line and redo to the water canals down bukit timah rd at the same time, then yep, the road will be chaos.

Or malls with bizarrely narrow walkways, tunnels, etc. And then using up vast tracts if land for things nobody ever seems to use eg/ some of the national service clubs. Manhattan is vastly more crowded than SP and yet, just seems to work better. I just don't get it. 4 years here and no further ahead than when I arrived in understanding some of the logic.


A perfect small example of this... There are six or seven blocks in the corner of the estate I live in, and that corner has only two small roads in and out. When you exit one of the those two roads, you can only turn left, ejecting you onto Marine Parade road, a huge cluster f-ck of traffic. The other small road in and out? They just turned it into a one-way because of a new lift. They built the lift halfway into the road. Really? w. t. f. The "solution" is to force traffic through the multi-story car park, up the ramp, drive around, zig zagging if you actually obey the one-way signs, and then back out the other end....

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Postby Sergei82 » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 9:48 am

Actually after living in Seoul I found Singapore almost deserted! But if somebody lives all life here, he may find it overcrowded, I guess.

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Postby Barnsley » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:16 am

The overcrowding is the two middle carriages on the MRT, not many folk like moving away from these two cars it seems.

Refusing to move "inside" on buses creates a crowd in the area near the driver when the back of the bus is empty.

It really isnt that bad, but like Sergei says if this is all you have known then it is "getting crowded".
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:20 am

Singapore is not so much over crowded as it is over inconsiderate. That is the problem. Without proper social graces, kiasu-ism crowding creates the impression of overcrowding when in reality it's not that bad at all. And this from a country boy not used to seeing people closer than a couple hundred yards away!

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Postby Mi Amigo » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 1:11 pm

zzm9980 wrote:Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"

I hereby volunteer to help design the stickers for this. :twisted:

A couple of weeks ago we were invited to the races at the Turf Club (a new experience for me, most enjoyable). The journey there, along the PIE, KJE and/or whatever other TLA highways we went on, seemed to take forever and once we got 'out of town' the view was mostly of trees, jungle and open spaces. I remember commenting along the lines of "So much for over-crowded Singapore." Obviously I'm not advocating the wholesale destruction of green spaces, but my point is that by carefully controlling the supply of land for building (and implying that there's a 'shortage'), the gahmen are squeezing everyone into small spaces, and helping to keep the property prices ridiculously high as a nice (for them) by-product.

I concur with the comments regarding a lack of 'joined up thinking'. There have been some spectacular civil engineering projects recently - take the Circle Line as an example. But when you come out of Stadium station and want to walk to Kallang Leisure Park, you have to make a series of 90 degree turns and zig-zag your way along paths that couldn't have been more illogically placed if they'd planned it that way. Surely they didn't actually plan it that way, right? :shock:
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Postby nakatago » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 1:21 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"

I hereby volunteer to help design the stickers for this. :twisted:

A couple of weeks ago we were invited to the races at the Turf Club (a new experience for me, most enjoyable). The journey there, along the PIE, KJE and/or whatever other TLA highways we went on, seemed to take forever and once we got 'out of town' the view was mostly of trees, jungle and open spaces. I remember commenting along the lines of "So much for over-crowded Singapore." Obviously I'm not advocating the wholesale destruction of green spaces, but my point is that by carefully controlling the supply of land for building (and implying that there's a 'shortage'), the gahmen are squeezing everyone into small spaces, and helping to keep the property prices ridiculously high as a nice (for them) by-product.

I concur with the comments regarding a lack of 'joined up thinking'. There have been some spectacular civil engineering projects recently - take the Circle Line as an example. But when you come out of Stadium station and want to walk to Kallang Leisure Park, you have to make a series of 90 degree turns and zig-zag your way along paths that couldn't have been more illogically placed if they'd planned it that way. Surely they didn't actually plan it that way, right? :shock:


Maybe if they put all those walkways and pathways in places that made sense, they'll have more space for residences.

In several HDB estates, I've been asked by drivers and delivery people asking where a certain block is because the layout didn't make sense and the pathways all lead to nowhere or go around in spirals.

Oh, how many times I've looked at Google maps and noticed a lot of roads lead to dead-ends or meander aimlessly when I finally go on site and don't see an reason why a more intuitive layout wasn't used.

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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 3:52 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"

I hereby volunteer to help design the stickers for this. :twisted:

A couple of weeks ago we were invited to the races at the Turf Club (a new experience for me, most enjoyable). The journey there, along the PIE, KJE and/or whatever other TLA highways we went on, seemed to take forever and once we got 'out of town' the view was mostly of trees, jungle and open spaces. I remember commenting along the lines of "So much for over-crowded Singapore." Obviously I'm not advocating the wholesale destruction of green spaces, but my point is that by carefully controlling the supply of land for building (and implying that there's a 'shortage'), the gahmen are squeezing everyone into small spaces, and helping to keep the property prices ridiculously high as a nice (for them) by-product.

I concur with the comments regarding a lack of 'joined up thinking'. There have been some spectacular civil engineering projects recently - take the Circle Line as an example. But when you come out of Stadium station and want to walk to Kallang Leisure Park, you have to make a series of 90 degree turns and zig-zag your way along paths that couldn't have been more illogically placed if they'd planned it that way. Surely they didn't actually plan it that way, right? :shock:


That's why they have the nice dirt trail through the grass... :P

And yeah, it seems the whole northwest corner of the island has plenty of room.

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Postby the lynx » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 4:07 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Perhaps the next courtesy campaign should be called "WAKE THE F-CK UP WHEN WALKING"

I hereby volunteer to help design the stickers for this. :twisted:

A couple of weeks ago we were invited to the races at the Turf Club (a new experience for me, most enjoyable). The journey there, along the PIE, KJE and/or whatever other TLA highways we went on, seemed to take forever and once we got 'out of town' the view was mostly of trees, jungle and open spaces. I remember commenting along the lines of "So much for over-crowded Singapore." Obviously I'm not advocating the wholesale destruction of green spaces, but my point is that by carefully controlling the supply of land for building (and implying that there's a 'shortage'), the gahmen are squeezing everyone into small spaces, and helping to keep the property prices ridiculously high as a nice (for them) by-product.

I concur with the comments regarding a lack of 'joined up thinking'. There have been some spectacular civil engineering projects recently - take the Circle Line as an example. But when you come out of Stadium station and want to walk to Kallang Leisure Park, you have to make a series of 90 degree turns and zig-zag your way along paths that couldn't have been more illogically placed if they'd planned it that way. Surely they didn't actually plan it that way, right? :shock:


That's why they have the nice dirt trail through the grass... :P

And yeah, it seems the whole northwest corner of the island has plenty of room.


It is everywhere! I wish to know what goes in the brains of civil engineers and architects when they design and construct common walkways for all buildings.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 4:24 pm

It seems to be just a blinkered mentality, where people only look at the immediate 'box' they are working on and totally ignore everything around it. I've seen it everywhere too. It's almost as if people are afraid to point out the ridiculously disjointed way things are put together, in case they somehow end up getting blamed for it. Seems it's better to just finish the specific job, tick the box and move on. Such a pity, because when you look at some of the stuff that's been built here it's truly remarkable. To then see it spoilt by a lack of basic common sense thinking is a real disappointment.
Last edited by Mi Amigo on Tue, 19 Feb 2013 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sergei82 » Tue, 19 Feb 2013 4:24 pm

Yes, the city planning itself is horrible. In every other city I lived you could reach from point A to point B in several different ways. Here, upon almost reaching point B you may find out that all access points to point B are blocked and you have no choice but to go back to point A and do a hook around the district... So much frustration at those moments!


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