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A cpl of questions regarding the current population Debate

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Thu, 28 Feb 2013 2:09 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:For anybody who actually wants to read the Population White Paper:

http://population.sg/whitepaper/resourc ... orrection/



I might get around to reading that but......

Population as much comes from exceedingly low productivity. Just a rant after the noise I had at lunchtime trying to enjoy my sandwich...... it takes 5-guys all day to cut the grass in my condo using strimmers, or one guy the same about of time when using a mower or 'sit-on'.

You want to talk about population? Talk about (inc. Gov. departments like NP) productivity and how we end up needing 4x more people than actually necessary. Then, AND ONLY THEN, should we talk about how many 'imports' are NEEDED. Peckerhead.

Um, SMS..... not you lah! ;)
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Postby Mi Amigo » Sun, 03 Mar 2013 9:00 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:For anybody who actually wants to read the Population White Paper:

http://population.sg/whitepaper/resourc ... orrection/

SMS, thanks for posting that link. I read the white paper on the plane home the other day and overall it looked quite logical to me.

I'm no economist, but it seems to me that the total population needs to stay level at an absolute minimum, in order to avoid a severe downturn. Modest growth at least is presumably proposed on the basis that even the most optimistic forecasts of potential productivity gains won't provide sufficient growth on their own. Personally, 6.5 - 6.9 million total population sounds too high to me, but at least if the infrastructure is developed to match such a scenario then they will at avoid gridlock.

I wonder how may of the people posting all those abusive, bigoted and reactionary comments on TRE and elsewhere have actually read the white paper, as opposed to just hearing the selective and misleading soundbites?
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 03 Mar 2013 9:25 pm

Less than 2% I reckon. In fact, I've been in a LOT of discussion both online AND in the RC. Even the other RC members haven't read it (including the chairman!) No damned wonder the current government is having a problem. Most of the ones who defend it also haven't actually taken the time to read it either, but are depending on other's sound bites as well. Pretty sad if you ask me. Even my wife was guilty of it, till I had printed out a hard copy of it and IBCO bound it at the office.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 9:02 am

In a typical developed country society less than 30% of population only is capable of comprehending a bit more complex documents like this one. You really expect people will get enlightened after reading it? I realize it sound pretty arrogant but I am afraid this is the reality. Besides, it comes from the government and it suggests to do exactly the opposite what the masses demand.
There must be a reason why they decided to publish it at all, and why they did it now. If they expected to convey the messages: you need more foreigners; perhaps the only messages majority received was: there will be even more foreigners coming.
So I would not really blame people for not reading it, I would blame the haters to manipulate the message and exploit people's fears.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 1:27 pm

Well TBH I didn't find the document hard to understand and I didn't even benefit from the supposedly world-class Singapore education system. Or in the words of Basil Fawlty:

This is not a proposition for Wittgenstein

So I would think that anyone who actually took the time to read the white paper would be able to understand the underlying points. But perhaps many people just prefer to jump straight to the racist vitriol stage.
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Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 2:05 pm

You are hardly an average person as per whole population standards.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 2:35 pm

Well I'm deeply flattered and I'll buy you a beer on Friday :cool:

But I still believe that anyone with a basic high school education should be able to understand the white paper.
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Postby the lynx » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 2:55 pm

Finally! I've been delaying myself from reading the actual White Paper and now I've done it.

Yesterday I had few discussions with my local friends (sadly none of them read the White Paper). In summary, I think there is a huge flaw in the system or society when all young people expect (or are expected) to be managers right out of polytechnic schools. The White Paper still emphasises on pushing and keeping all Singaporeans 'up there', while relying on the foreign labour for the cheaper jobs.

And on the same page, they talked about fair wage for Singaporeans on lower-end jobs. Minimum wage and cheap foreign labour cannot come together.

Please correct me if I'm interpreting this part inaccurately.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 3:24 pm

the lynx wrote:Finally! I've been delaying myself from reading the actual White Paper and now I've done it.

Yesterday I had few discussions with my local friends (sadly none of them read the White Paper). In summary, I think there is a huge flaw in the system or society when all young people expect (or are expected) to be managers right out of polytechnic schools. The White Paper still emphasises on pushing and keeping all Singaporeans 'up there', while relying on the foreign labour for the cheaper jobs.

And on the same page, they talked about fair wage for Singaporeans on lower-end jobs. Minimum wage and cheap foreign labour cannot come together.

Please correct me if I'm interpreting this part inaccurately.

Why not? Current example: FDW vs PRs and SCs doing their job equivalent (or typically much less).

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 3:26 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:Well I'm deeply flattered and I'll buy you a beer on Friday :cool:

But I still believe that anyone with a basic high school education should be able to understand the white paper.

Oh, 'cmon (not that I am refusing any free beer).

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 04 Mar 2013 5:54 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:So I would think that anyone who actually took the time to read the white paper would be able to understand the underlying points. But perhaps many people just prefer to jump straight to the racist vitriol stage.


Perhaps they published it so they could suggest to the people 'Hey, look, you're included in this decision, it's important, it's all about you'.

So they flatter people by suggesting their involvement is sought, whilst knowing most people aren't capable of understanding it, and/or interested in doing so.

Got a grumble about the population in future? 'Well, we told you so, but you weren't interested...'

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Postby Mi Amigo » Tue, 05 Mar 2013 9:49 am

JR8 wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:So I would think that anyone who actually took the time to read the white paper would be able to understand the underlying points. But perhaps many people just prefer to jump straight to the racist vitriol stage.


Perhaps they published it so they could suggest to the people 'Hey, look, you're included in this decision, it's important, it's all about you'.

So they flatter people by suggesting their involvement is sought, whilst knowing most people aren't capable of understanding it, and/or interested in doing so.

Got a grumble about the population in future? 'Well, we told you so, but you weren't interested...'

At the risk of being labelled a gahmen sympathiser (or worse) :P , whereas in reality I'm just trying to be objective ...

I do remember seeing various requests for public input on this subject over the past couple of years. And if you look at Annex A there is a summary of the feedback that was received and taken into account in the preparation of the white paper.

x9200 wrote:In a typical developed country society less than 30% of population only is capable of comprehending a bit more complex documents like this one. You really expect people will get enlightened after reading it? I realize it sound pretty arrogant but I am afraid this is the reality. Besides, it comes from the government and it suggests to do exactly the opposite what the masses demand.
There must be a reason why they decided to publish it at all, and why they did it now. If they expected to convey the messages: you need more foreigners; perhaps the only messages majority received was: there will be even more foreigners coming.
So I would not really blame people for not reading it, I would blame the haters to manipulate the message and exploit people's fears.

Sorry, but I still disagree with the idea that this is a difficult document to understand. The executive summary at the beginning conveys the key information in six pages (and that's including the pretty pictures) in a way that is (IMO) easy to digest. So I really don't buy the idea that understanding the white paper is such an onerous task. If people prefer not to read it and just jump to their own conclusions based on partial and/or inaccurate information, that's up to them. But I don't think it's fair to blame the gahmen for the uneducated level of 'debate' (I use the term loosely) that is going on in many places.

x9200 wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:Well I'm deeply flattered and I'll buy you a beer on Friday :cool:

But I still believe that anyone with a basic high school education should be able to understand the white paper.

Oh, 'cmon (not that I am refusing any free beer).

The offer of the beer still stands and once suitably refreshed we can discuss further... :cool:
Be careful what you wish for

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 06 Mar 2013 6:31 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:
x9200 wrote:In a typical developed country society less than 30% of population only is capable of comprehending a bit more complex documents like this one. You really expect people will get enlightened after reading it? I realize it sound pretty arrogant but I am afraid this is the reality. Besides, it comes from the government and it suggests to do exactly the opposite what the masses demand.
There must be a reason why they decided to publish it at all, and why they did it now. If they expected to convey the messages: you need more foreigners; perhaps the only messages majority received was: there will be even more foreigners coming.
So I would not really blame people for not reading it, I would blame the haters to manipulate the message and exploit people's fears.

Sorry, but I still disagree with the idea that this is a difficult document to understand. The executive summary at the beginning conveys the key information in six pages (and that's including the pretty pictures) in a way that is (IMO) easy to digest. So I really don't buy the idea that understanding the white paper is such an onerous task. If people prefer not to read it and just jump to their own conclusions based on partial and/or inaccurate information, that's up to them. But I don't think it's fair to blame the gahmen for the uneducated level of 'debate' (I use the term loosely) that is going on in many places.

This number I mentioned, this 30%, I remember reading about this, but I can not find the source at this moment. A bit apple to oranges, but only a bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_i ... ted_States

21-23% of the adults in the States were not able to locate information in the text. This, IMHO is much simpler task than comprehending some semi-technical points of more complex documents, even if this is only an executive summary.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 06 Mar 2013 8:58 pm

Singapore tends to hold itself above the "typical" hence the propensity of running around the world yelling look and us, look at us, we are number one in this, that and the other. Of course, most of us know the actual reality of that is pure BS.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Thu, 07 Mar 2013 12:18 pm

Well if it were really true that only ~30% of the citizen population are actually capable of understanding the white paper, that certainly wouldn't bode well for the future. Especially after they've kicked all us 'foreign trash' out and are running the whole show themselves. :-|
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