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Another 30% population jump in Singapore by 2030?

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sundaymorningstaple
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 05 Feb 2013 9:22 pm

OSOD has been asked to leave the building. :-|

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Postby Wd40 » Tue, 05 Feb 2013 10:00 pm

I accept I haven't read the white paper, the newspapers and the TV channels are all, from where I am getting the information from.

But you have to agree that it has been an extremely bad PR exercise.

There were actually 2 statements made in the press and you can see the difference. You shouldn't blame the press because they are only quoting someone.

Google for "HIGH QUALITY OF LIFE STILL POSSIBLE WITH 6.9M PEOPLE"

After reading this what kind of message do you get?

Now Google for "Population of 6.9 million is ‘worst case scenario"

See now the message is different.

Both statements made by same person.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 05 Feb 2013 10:04 pm

I found the article so full of internal contradictions, it just left me completely confused. You'd have thought that explaining why there is a policy of targeting population growth would have made a good starting point, but they don't even touch on the matter.

I'm surprised that a newspaper is SG is permitted to write in such a way that could be described as 'misleading' at best.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:18 pm

Wd40 wrote:I accept I haven't read the white paper, the newspapers and the TV channels are all, from where I am getting the information from.

But you have to agree that it has been an extremely bad PR exercise.

There were actually 2 statements made in the press and you can see the difference. You shouldn't blame the press because they are only quoting someone.

Google for "HIGH QUALITY OF LIFE STILL POSSIBLE WITH 6.9M PEOPLE"

After reading this what kind of message do you get?

Now Google for "Population of 6.9 million is ‘worst case scenario"

See now the message is different.

Both statements made by same person.


The message I got was the same message I got 30 years ago. I'm a firm believer of reading documents and making up my own mind. Especially in a country where all the locals are extremists and cannot, for the life of them, read for nuance. I learned that the only way to take any data from the garbage bin liner is to look for the source documents so the info can be read in context. You should learn to do the same.

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Postby ScoobyDoes » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 8:35 am

In context with the mail I got from MoM yesterday saying EP and DP were going up from $70 and $60 respectively to $150, SPass from $60 to $80 and the LTVP from $30 to $60 there is clearly going to be a cost impact of limiting foreigners whilst trying to increase population to pay for the grey hairs.

The thing is, they keep the WP at $30 for the FW but stick a knife into EP holders etc. who should be the ones more in a position to hire the local population PAP is wanting.

What immigration needs to do is stick to its own rules about who qualifies for EP in the firt place, not simply stick up prices.
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 9:25 am

The reason for the increases are obvious. The are trying to combat the local business penchant for hiring foreign PMETs at reduced rates when local PMETs are available but for reasons which we all know, are actually unsuitable as employees in the best of circumstances (with the sole exception of bumping up the local employee base for quota purposes). The gahmen figure between the levies and the application fees being continually increased, eventually, it will be cheaper to just hire locals and pay their CPF.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 4:59 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Wd40 wrote:I accept I haven't read the white paper, the newspapers and the TV channels are all, from where I am getting the information from.

But you have to agree that it has been an extremely bad PR exercise.

There were actually 2 statements made in the press and you can see the difference. You shouldn't blame the press because they are only quoting someone.

Google for "HIGH QUALITY OF LIFE STILL POSSIBLE WITH 6.9M PEOPLE"

After reading this what kind of message do you get?

Now Google for "Population of 6.9 million is ‘worst case scenario"

See now the message is different.

Both statements made by same person.


The message I got was the same message I got 30 years ago. I'm a firm believer of reading documents and making up my own mind. Especially in a country where all the locals are extremists and cannot, for the life of them, read for nuance. I learned that the only way to take any data from the garbage bin liner is to look for the source documents so the info can be read in context. You should learn to do the same.


What's worse is that even the MPs obviously haven't all read it, as they refer to different numbers for the SC and PR that are not from the white paper, but from some internet discussion sites.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 5:05 pm

Yep. Backbenchers are where they belong. Actually back behind the barn somewhere would be better.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 5:58 pm

Don't you guys realise that the Gahmen is reading all these posts from here and other forums.
They are using us to formulate a formula. White papers are nothing new until the census comes back. Wait for a few months then we can see if white can turn to green.
Those arm chair damagers are knuckle head to the ground movement
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Postby movingtospore » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 8:13 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:OSOD has been asked to leave the building. :-|


Too bad he couldn't play nice in the sandbox. Did have some interesting and helpful things to say when he wasn't raging.

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Postby movingtospore » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 8:28 pm

I'm getting fed up with living in a place where racism and xenophobia seem to have become the basis for policy making. Though I understand the angst, and they are right to want to protect jobs, at the same time, the "get rid of the foreigners attitude" is becoming far too prevalent and is crossing the line and degenerating into a level of discourse that could really damage Singapore for a long time to come.

They can toss everyone out, make it a hostile investment climate, and make it impossible to do business here anymore, but the jobs and investment will go along with those foreigners and they will be back to being a backwards backwater before they know what hits them.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 9:50 pm

movingtospore wrote:I'm getting fed up with living in a place where racism and xenophobia seem to have become the basis for policy making. Though I understand the angst, and they are right to want to protect jobs, at the same time, the "get rid of the foreigners attitude" is becoming far too prevalent and is crossing the line and degenerating into a level of discourse that could really damage Singapore for a long time to come.

They can toss everyone out, make it a hostile investment climate, and make it impossible to do business here anymore, but the jobs and investment will go along with those foreigners and they will be back to being a backwards backwater before they know what hits them.


Quite difficult to say how true the xenophobia or anti-foreign sentiment really is. There is a loud punch writing in the internet all kinds of rubbish, but that still doesn't tell how popular they really are. I still think less than in Europe, which is not that bad. I mean seriously those local youths who think that Singapore don't need the MNCs, or that the MNCs would stay if foreigners wouldn't be allowed in, are really a small naïve minority (it must be, or I'd hope so that people had some brains).

A bit old article for Europe, http://www.businessinsider.com/rise-of- ... 011-6?op=1

It is easier to measure there because on the continental side of Europe with the "non-British winner take all election systems" allow small parties also be presented in parliament. It seems that extreme right (mostly racist) populist political parties are currently getting somewhere between 10-20% support; if you read political disputes from internet you'd think that they have about 50%, so I seems that the extreme people are much more active in writing their opinions and debating than what their real share is, or they make a lot of noise and still don't bother to vote.

What I'm still more surprised is that MPs are discussing topics without facts or maybe it's just politics and sham. Like today there was a comment where MP proposed that youth PRs should do NS. But hey isn't that already the case mostly (if you get your PR at the age that you'd go to NS, it is most likely 2nd generation PR and not your own merit, and 2nd Gen PRs are already liable for NS)? Is it that MPs don't know this or the Singaporeans don't know it and MPs try to get popularity points in proposing something people would like to hear that is actually already in place. The latter wouldn't really surprise me, as it seems that many Singaporeans don't really know the rights for PRs and other foreigners in Singapore and complain based on rumors on facebook or whatever website.

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Postby Wd40 » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:07 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Quite difficult to say how true the xenophobia or anti-foreign sentiment really is. There is a loud punch writing in the internet all kinds of rubbish, but that still doesn't tell how popular they really are.


I think the sentiment is very much there, otherwise, how else do you explain Punggol east By Election. Punggol east is actually a newish area. It is actually Sengkang, rivervale mall. This area has a very young population who are internet savvy. Also this area is very popular among foreigner PRs lapping up HDB resale houses, especially Indians. In this area the ratio of Indians is actually already full and difficult for new Indians to buy houses due to the quota restrictions.The whole of east has high concentration of Indian FTs and Sengkang and Punggol are the latest hotspots after Tampines and Pasir Ris.

Surely this sentiment would have played a large by in the election result.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:12 pm

IMO the difference between Europe and Singapore is that it takes an extremist in Europe to be openly racist or xenophobic while here these are just the average Joes showing all the symptoms. Same goes for the fora. Maybe I am wrong, but I see this hatred like almost everywhere, what again is not the case for Europe.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 07 Feb 2013 1:23 am

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:It seems that extreme right (mostly racist) populist political parties are currently getting somewhere between 10-20% support; if you read political disputes from internet you'd think that they have about 50%, so I seems that the extreme people are much more active in writing their opinions and debating than what their real share is, or they make a lot of noise and still don't bother to vote.


Easy guy, I think you might be confusing two things: anti-EU, versus 'racism'. After all, bumi Europeans are all one race.

You need to consider that a majority of the EU apparatus, bureaucracy and vast cost has been implemented against the popular will (votes re: the EU Constitution have only been held in a two 'core' countries where they've been assumed they will easily win. IIRC they held that vote twice in France because the first time the people 'gave the wrong answer'. In Holland IIRC, the people gave the 'wrong answer' and it was simply ignored. As a result they've held no more national votes after that, c.10 years ago, as the people would 'vote the wrong way' and the politicians would lose).

Consider the EU right to freedom of movement, within the context of ASEAN.

It would mean that say a Burmese family of seven (two parents, five children) could enter Singapore by any means and declare themselves homeless. The SGn state would them be obliged by law to provide them with a probably 5+ bedroom home (depending on the childrens' ages), and to pay benefits to support the entire family at a baseline level + healthcare + education, and so on. This is pretty much guaranteed for life.

Do you still wonder why poor families will risk their lives making this journey?

Similarly do you wonder why a middle-class SGn family getting by with a son who has just got his first career job and is thinking of saving hard and getting together the deposit on his first home in perhaps five years time might feel: His long-term dream, being handed on a plate to 'illegals', and he's the one paying for it?


p.s. I won't go into what such immigrants might do during all their job-less waking hours, like begging on the streets, drug-dealing, prostitution and so on, as that is for another discussion.

If you are from Western Europe, you are sadly very well used to them. [Google/Image search on 'Romanian beggar *' where * is the name of any wealthy city in Europe and you will see what I mean.


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