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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:40 pm

vink2 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Based on your poor reading comprehension and your careful wording here, I'm guessing you're not actually European, but from a migrant or refugee family, who has benefited greatly from the social policies PPF is criticizing.


Dream on! :D :D :D :D :D

PPF claims that he doesn't make here too much (no expat package).
I'm very familiar with local salaries and salaries in Nordic countries.
Probably he doesn't say everything.


Ok let's step back.

You assert that NO ONE in Scandinavia would want to work in Singapore without an expat package because Scandinavia is a much better place. PPF says thats not the case. Many people on this forum are (or know peoplewho are ) foreigners working in Singapore without expat packages. You're making an absolutist claim which is very difficult for you to prove, and seems entirely based on your own personal opinion and friendship with a single expat in Norway (being an expat by your own assumptions, he's also likely very well paid).

So unless you're claiming to know every Scandinavian in Singapore (or at least a majority) and their compensation, you should see how absurb your position is to try and defend.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:45 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
vink2 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Based on your poor reading comprehension and your careful wording here, I'm guessing you're not actually European, but from a migrant or refugee family, who has benefited greatly from the social policies PPF is criticizing.


Dream on! :D :D :D :D :D

PPF claims that he doesn't make here too much (no expat package).
I'm very familiar with local salaries and salaries in Nordic countries.
Probably he doesn't say everything.


Ok let's step back.

You assert that NO ONE in Scandinavia would want to work in Singapore without an expat package because Scandinavia is a much better place. PPF says thats not the case. Many people on this forum are (or know peoplewho are ) foreigners working in Singapore without expat packages. You're making an absolutist claim which is very difficult for you to prove, and seems entirely based on your own personal opinion and friendship with a single expat in Norway (being an expat by your own assumptions, he's also likely very well paid).

So unless you're claiming to know every Scandinavian in Singapore (or at least a majority) and their compensation, you should see how absurb your position is to try and defend.



Nope! We are talking about different things. The same for me, I work here in Singapore because it gives me some profit. But as I said earlier, Singapore is good for Europeans only for some time. I was clear when I said that Europe is better place to live and after some time vast majority move back home to Europe.
We have around 200 folks from my country, here in Singapore. I don't know anyone who is going to settle here.
Last edited by vink2 on Wed, 30 Jan 2013 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:13 pm

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:You really sound more and more like that you don't know anything about Scandinavia. Unemployed are much better of there, and so are the lowskilled workers like cleaners, bus drivers etc, as they benefit from the system when they receive more than they pay in taxes. If you wanna close your ears and eyes from opinion that are different than yours that fine, but maybe you shouldn't write your very biased views as facts here.

So you are blue collar, aren't you?



No. If I was I wouldn't be better of here.


ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:A friend who works in Norway, that certainly is impressive amount of knowledge. So please leave it if this is what you know about Scandinavia.


Mate, I worked for large Danish company together with Danes, my manager was native Dane. The pay was great, the way the treat people also great. Should you need more examples, I may find you.


Did you work in Denmark and pay Danish income tax too?

But you still haven't answered my question: are you European born? Are you from Norway, Sweden, Denmark or Finland?


Yes, from one of those and lived and worked in another one of those.
So where's that home country of yours?

I don't believe you, as I said I have 30 years European experience and I was born in Europe.
I guess you are local who used to live in Iceland or Estonia.


Wrong guess again, and really your arrogant attitude blaming other people are liars is really getting annoying. Not to mentioned the bad manners you're showing. Do you do that everywhere or just on anonymous forums?

If for You Denmark or Scandinavia is heaven it doesn't mean it is that for everyone. If you can't get it well, discussing you and your blaming others as liars is getting quite tiring. and really unless you're citizen of one of those countries you're hardly gonna have more experience or understanding how the system there works.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:27 pm

vink2 wrote:Nope! We are talking about different things. The same for me, I work here in Singapore because it gives me some profit. But as I said earlier, Singapore is good for Europeans only for some time. I was clear when I said that Europe is better place to live and after some time vast majority move back home to Europe.
We have around 200 folks from my country, here in Singapore. I don't know anyone who is going to settle here. I'm quite sure PPF will return back to Scandinavia, because with all its minuses it is good place to live.
And yeap, he may work as blue collar in Scandinavia in a worst case scenario or, probably, when he will retire, so he will enjoy benefits.


Rubbish again, there are lot of Europeans who've settled down here and have no plans moving back to their home countries. Some may retire in cheaper countries around, but that's another story. And really maybe you should find some of the people who are not here for 2 year assignment only.

Nope, I did not work as a blue collar in Scandinavia with the exception of some summer jobs in the 80s. You really should reserve your assumptions and judgments. As said Scandinavia is currently still a good place to live if you don't want to manage your own life and finances a let government give taxpayers money to you.


Did PPF confirm that he is going to get citizenship here? Nope.

Nope haven't seen the real reason compared to PR yet. But what does that have to do with it. My passport doesn't give me pension plan in Scandinavia, it is counted from the year I worked there and paid for the pension system. So I'd get my share (gonna be small at that time anyway) paid to Singapore too if I wish.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:38 pm

vink2 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:Based on your poor reading comprehension and your careful wording here, I'm guessing you're not actually European, but from a migrant or refugee family, who has benefited greatly from the social policies PPF is criticizing.


Dream on! :D :D :D :D :D

PPF claims that he doesn't make here too much (no expat package).
I'm very familiar with local salaries and salaries in Nordic countries.
Probably he doesn't say everything.


You are either intentionally or accidentally misinterpreting things. I said I have no expat package (housing, travel, school allowances). I didn't say I don't make a decent salary (but so do my Singaporean colleagues too). The best of it I can keep most of my salary, as there's no socialist government stealing it to be redistributed.

Sorry, you don't seem to know too much about the Singaporean salaries, there's a lot of low end salaries for sure, but high end too. In the Scandinavian model the key is to make sure that the take home pay of the lowest and highest is kept to the minimum.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:40 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
vink2 wrote:Nope! We are talking about different things. The same for me, I work here in Singapore because it gives me some profit. But as I said earlier, Singapore is good for Europeans only for some time. I was clear when I said that Europe is better place to live and after some time vast majority move back home to Europe.
We have around 200 folks from my country, here in Singapore. I don't know anyone who is going to settle here. I'm quite sure PPF will return back to Scandinavia, because with all its minuses it is good place to live.
And yeap, he may work as blue collar in Scandinavia in a worst case scenario or, probably, when he will retire, so he will enjoy benefits.


Rubbish again, there are lot of Europeans who've settled down here and have no plans moving back to their home countries. Some may retire in cheaper countries around, but that's another story. And really maybe you should find some of the people who are not here for 2 year assignment only.

Nope, I did not work as a blue collar in Scandinavia with the exception of some summer jobs in the 80s. You really should reserve your assumptions and judgments. As said Scandinavia is currently still a good place to live if you don't want to manage your own life and finances a let government give taxpayers money to you.


Did PPF confirm that he is going to get citizenship here? Nope.

Nope haven't seen the real reason compared to PR yet. But what does that have to do with it. My passport doesn't give me pension plan in Scandinavia, it is counted from the year I worked there and paid for the pension system. So I'd get my share (gonna be small at that time anyway) paid to Singapore too if I wish.


Well, mate, if you have a lot of money, no doubt, you may live everywhere you want and no reason to return back.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:43 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:If for You Denmark or Scandinavia is heaven it doesn't mean it is that for everyone. If you can't get it well, discussing you and your blaming others as liars is getting quite tiring. and really unless you're citizen of one of those countries you're hardly gonna have more experience or understanding how the system there works.


No, it is you arrogant, you pretend to be a voice for all Scandinavians people. Do you have idea why people pay big taxes? To finance the system, to be socially protected. Say, you loose your job in Singapore and with no luck find another one. What will you do? Move to Scandinavia, because you will be protected there. As I said, you have a lot of money, you may not need Nordic, but this is exceptional case, not a general trend.
Compare to Europe, Singapore is not social country.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 3:02 pm

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:If for You Denmark or Scandinavia is heaven it doesn't mean it is that for everyone. If you can't get it well, discussing you and your blaming others as liars is getting quite tiring. and really unless you're citizen of one of those countries you're hardly gonna have more experience or understanding how the system there works.


No, it is you arrogant, you pretend to be a voice for all Scandinavians people. Do you have idea why people pay big taxes? To finance the system, to be socially protected. Say, you loose your job in Singapore and with no luck find another one. What will you do? Move to Scandinavia, because you will be protected there. As I said, you have a lot of money, you may not need Nordic, but this is exceptional case, not a general trend.
Compare to Europe, Singapore is not social country.


Sorry, but I think you are the one who doesn't want to hear different view of your dreamland. So have you actually ever lived there?

I'm by no way saying I'm the spokesperson for all Scandinavians, and I am aware that some people are better of there. Blue collar workers etc. Especially unemployed as they don't have to look for another job, they'll survive. and that is exactly what is killing that system. There was a time when the government could afford it, but not any more.

Wow, what an interpretation. you're not Scandinavian and claim to understand how it works there.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 3:09 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Wow, what an interpretation. you're not Scandinavian and claim to understand how it works there.


Because all European systems are very similar, build on common values.
You are probably just arrived and have no idea what is non-social country.
Try to give a birth here and pay for your kids: kindergarten, etc. Try to lose a job... They will pay you zero. ...and you will understand.
Of course, if you are not top earner and have lots of savings.
High taxes in Europe is a part of social protection.
And what about pension plan: do you want to become a professional trader to manage your money to have enough to retire here?
In my country current workers and professionals pays money to fund old people. It is nice system, because we don't loose money because of inflation: I'm paying now, someone will pay for me when I retire.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 4:57 pm

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Wow, what an interpretation. you're not Scandinavian and claim to understand how it works there.


Because all European systems are very similar, build on common values.


Ok, so when you interpret your experiences all European countries they are all similar and based on similar values. When someone else does it you don't want to talk about German, UK, France or Spain because you are not interested.

and is that correct too that you don't need to live in Scandinavia to understand the system better than someone who has grown up there, and is used to discuss and debate the local politics defended by the socialists/communist (yes of course they are called social democrats in Scandinavia). Got it.

You are probably just arrived and have no idea what is non-social country.
Try to give a birth here and pay for your kids: kindergarten, etc. Try to lose a job... They will pay you zero. ...and you will understand.


Well I've been here less than 10 years but more than 5, so pretty new compared to SMS and some of the seniors around. How about you?

Lost job once, well the company ran out of money, I could have stayed, but when salary becomes irregular and in the end I was owed more than 9 months salary. So had to find a new job. So some experience in that. and my child was born here too. So what more do I need to understand?

Have you possibly lost job recently and are bitter about that Singapore doesn't take good enough care about you?

Of course, if you are not top earner and have lots of savings.
High taxes in Europe is a part of social protection.


Another socialist illusion, that they try to brainwash everyone to believe in. If we cut taxes we need to shut down hospitals, schools and elder care. Most of the government budget is spend on fat public sector. In Scandinavia public sector is more efficient and less corrupted than in Southern Europe, that keeps it tolerable. But still the high taxes in budget do not go to social protection alone. There's the idea that money is better to be circulated via the wise government, so families first pay high taxes and then go and apply for housing allowances etc.

Plus it still creates the exact problem with the Scandinavian model that it is too easy to slip out of the working life. For 20 somethings who don't want to pick up jobs they don't like, it is too easy to do as the difference between living on benefits is so small. When they grow up slowly they realize the mistake, but that's already too late.

Denmark has made some good changes to these policies, and made it is easier to lay off people, which makes hiring more attractive to companies. Sweden and Finland are far behind, and Norway well the oil sheiks country doesn't really count as nobody else can afford to copy their model.

And what about pension plan: do you want to become a professional trader to manage your money to have enough to retire here?


There's CPF here, which is way more reliable than any of the western Europe's pension plans (Norway excepted). and to top that up with some savings is not that difficult, so there's no need to become a professional trader. It's been done for ages also in Scandinavia as many don't trust and believe on the government pension funds ability to pay up in 30-40 years from now. Nice to know what you have instead of trusting to the politicians.

In my country current workers and professionals pays money to fund old people. It is nice system, because we don't loose money because of inflation: I'm paying now, someone will pay for me when I retire.


Good luck with that. I hope yours more reliable than Greek pension system. The big problem in whole Europe is that the pension promises were made based on growth models that are no valid any more, and the politicians do not dare to make the unpopular changes before it is too late.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 5:09 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Good luck with that. I hope yours more reliable than Greek pension system. The big problem in whole Europe is that the pension promises were made based on growth models that are no valid any more, and the politicians do not dare to make the unpopular changes before it is too late.


Your case is very unusual. Probably you have other interests, say, local wife, etc. or you qualification is not in a high demand in Scandinavia, but still you have an option to search for a job in EU. Or you not Caucasian and Asia fits you better. I'm more than 5 years here, by the way. Usually Europeans return back, nobody needs citizenship. PR may be an option if you intended to live here, say, more than 10 years.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 5:34 pm

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Good luck with that. I hope yours more reliable than Greek pension system. The big problem in whole Europe is that the pension promises were made based on growth models that are no valid any more, and the politicians do not dare to make the unpopular changes before it is too late.


Your case is very unusual. Probably you have other interests, say, local wife, etc. or you qualification is not in a high demand in Scandinavia, but still you have an option to search for a job in EU. Or you not Caucasian and Asia fits you better. I'm more than 5 years here, by the way. Usually Europeans return back, nobody needs citizenship. PR may be an option if you intended to live here, say, more than 10 years.


For sure many people come and go in Singapore, and the local government takes care that they don't stay here too long if they are not employable. But no it is not that unusual, seriously I think you are hanging around with the expat only hangarounds, if you haven't met any of the long term PR or foreign residents here. if you really been here 5 years and don't know any one staying here for good.

You seem to still be seriously under the impression that everyone wants to live in Scandinavia if they can. But of course I have an option to look jobs in EU, or US or Australia or China or .... Nothing stopping me.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 5:41 pm

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:Good luck with that. I hope yours more reliable than Greek pension system. The big problem in whole Europe is that the pension promises were made based on growth models that are no valid any more, and the politicians do not dare to make the unpopular changes before it is too late.


Your case is very unusual. Probably you have other interests, say, local wife, etc. or you qualification is not in a high demand in Scandinavia, but still you have an option to search for a job in EU. Or you not Caucasian and Asia fits you better. I'm more than 5 years here, by the way. Usually Europeans return back, nobody needs citizenship. PR may be an option if you intended to live here, say, more than 10 years.


For sure many people come and go in Singapore, and the local government takes care that they don't stay here too long if they are not employable. But no it is not that unusual, seriously I think you are hanging around with the expat only hangarounds, if you haven't met any of the long term PR or foreign residents here. if you really been here 5 years and don't know any one staying here for good.

You seem to still be seriously under the impression that everyone wants to live in Scandinavia if they can. But of course I have an option to look jobs in EU, or US or Australia or China or .... Nothing stopping me.


Well, I know some PR-guys, but in 10-20 years they are planning to return back.
Anyway, I don't want to continue. The problem with this online forum that I don't see you and don't know you and a lot of missing out of context. Thanks.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 5:54 pm

vink2 wrote:I don't see you and don't know you and a lot of missing out of context.


Talking of lack of context, I don't believe you have said where you are from (despite demanding to know the same of others), or what you do for work.

If people knew your background I'd have thought they'd be better able to understand your position, and the discussion would be more fruitful for all.

Just my 2C.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 5:55 pm

I've just read three pages of pure unadulterated BS, vink2, I figure you are probably an immigrant born in Europe to Immigrant parents. But from your attitude and inability to see the woods for the trees, I'd almost guess your parents are originally from somewhere in S.E. Asia. :roll:


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