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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Sun, 27 Jan 2013 9:40 pm

vink2 wrote:Very funny, thanks. Which European countries have you visited so far?
40 hours is commons sense, anyway. Unless you want to retire early.


I don’t know how many, but is having lived there for around c.40 years adequate to give my experience/opinion some credibility in your eyes? How much time have you spent in Europe? For the sake of simplicity you can just round it up or down to the nearest ten years.

Why do you suggest ‘40hrs is common sense’? Why do you believe the government should dictate how many hours a man can work, even if he wishes to work more than the legal maximum?


vink2 wrote: To add to your negligence, you probably need to know that Europe is the set of separate countries, not states. With local law system and ability to exist any union at any time. EU is subset of this set. Eurozone also subset backed by the strong economies - that means that in the worst scenario the Euro currency will decease and they will back to local currencies.


Is it? In that case why does it have a president, a currency, EU-wide laws, a parliament and an anthem? Aren’t these things that states have?

I’m surprised that you think a country can exit the EU. After all look at what happened to Greece when they threatened to exit. They received the political equivalent of a knee-capping for daring to think so independently. After all, if Greece had have exited and then flourished outside the EU, what kind of message might that send to other EU members. (One is reminded of the death of Admiral Byng*, an innocent man executed ‘Pour encourager les autres’, i.e. to encourage the others who might be thinking the same way. No, Greece was all but economically destroyed by the Germans, to send a message to any other member having similar thoughts. The Germans even managed to displace the old prime-minster (Papandreou) and get ‘their man’ in. How neo-colonialist is that!? Isn’t it ironic that Greece was the birthplace of democracy, and also the first state in the EU where it was subsequently well and truly killed off.

vink2 wrote:Dude, where would you be without Europe?


Where are Norway and Switzerland other than the two richest countries in Europe? Do you think it a coincidence that neither of them are members of the EU?

vink2 wrote:Companies align their behavior with the law. Also it is unusual for Europe to fire in 1 hr., but to prevent this, additional law exist. And why did you mention Japan I have no idea. And what do you know about Europe? I'm quite sure nothing. Probably you visited some popular tourist destinations like UK, France.


Hehehe... funny!
‘Unusual to fire in 1hr’. You have made a generally correct observation, but you do not seem to have considered what the consequence of it are. I’ll give you an example. In France it so difficult to lay-off someone that wherever possible a company will do without hiring additional staff if at all possible. It is not that unusual to go to a small restaurant (say space for 50), and the one waitress, is the chef’s wife. Let’s hope you aren’t in a rush to receive your food eh? So the flipside of your vaunted job-protection, is there aren’t ‘any jobs’ created at all. An example of the law of unintended consequences, or, achieving the polar opposite to that desired.

vink2 wrote: Have you ever been in Poland, for example? It is new European powerhouse.


As it happens I haven’t been to Poland (as much as I would like to), but I do live on it’s doorstep. I don’t know what economic measure you are considering to describe it as a ‘powerhouse’. What I do know is that you will find a huge number of Poles in the UK, and one of the major reasons because they are often very industrious and well-educated people, and there are more opportunities for people with such a hunger to advance, at least in part because the UK is not bound by the Working Time Directive.

Here, I can recommend a book for you. This will educate you on the political founding of the EU (I’ll give you a leg-up, it was the vision of Frenchman Jean Monnet, who conceived it as a geo-political counter-weight to the ‘over-dominant’ United States)

‘An Awkward Partner: Britain in the European Community’
http://www.amazon.com/An-Awkward-Partne ... ref=sr_1_3

And ironically I also found this book, which I expect might also interest you....

‘Poland Within the European Union: New Awkward Partner or New Heart of Europe? (Routledge Advances in European Politics)’
http://www.amazon.com/Poland-Within-Eur ... ref=sr_1_6


----------------------------------------------------
*‘Byng's execution was satirized by Voltaire in his novel Candide. In Portsmouth, Candide witnesses the execution of an officer by firing squad; and is told that "in this country, it is good to kill an admiral from time to time, in order to encourage the others" (Dans ce pays-ci, il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres).
-----------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byng

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Postby vink2 » Sun, 27 Jan 2013 9:58 pm

JR8 wrote:I don’t know how many, but is having lived there for around c.40 years adequate to give my experience/opinion some credibility in your eyes? How much time have you spent in Europe? For the sake of simplicity you can just round it up or down to the nearest ten years.


30 years of European experience is considered enough to debate?

Why do you suggest ‘40hrs is common sense’? Why do you believe the government should dictate how many hours a man can work, even if he wishes to work more than the legal maximum?


In order not to give companies instruments to use people.
40hrs comes from research. We all have personal life and not only work, you need to be balanced to deliver great result.
In my European country is okay to work more than 40 hours if you wish.
I don't know where this rule strictly 40 applies. But, as I mentioned early, I'm not big fan of western part of Europe.


Is it? In that case why does it have a president, a currency, EU-wide laws, a parliament and an anthem? Aren’t these things that states have?


If they want they may leave. Not all EU countries adopted EURO, by the way.

Where are Norway and Switzerland other than the two richest countries in Europe? Do you think it a coincidence that neither of them are members of the EU?

It is what I'm talking about, about Europe, not just EU.

Hehehe... funny!
‘Unusual to fire in 1hr’. You have made a generally correct observation, but you do not seem to have considered what the consequence of it are. I’ll give you an example. In France it so difficult to lay-off someone that wherever possible a company will do without hiring additional staff if at all possible. It is not that unusual to go to a small restaurant (say space for 50), and the one waitress, is the chef’s wife. Let’s hope you aren’t in a rush to receive your food eh? So the flipside of your vaunted job-protection, is there aren’t ‘any jobs’ created at all. An example of the law of unintended consequences, or, achieving the polar opposite to that desired.

France, probably, will be the only exception with strange labor law.

As it happens I haven’t been to Poland (as much as I would like to), but I do live on it’s doorstep. I don’t know what economic measure you are considering to describe it as a ‘powerhouse’. What I do know is that you will find a huge number of Poles in the UK, and one of the major reasons because they are often very industrious and well-educated people, and there are more opportunities for people with such a hunger to advance, at least in part because the UK is not bound by the Working Time Directive.

The same for me, I lived near with Poland's doorstep.
The previous crisis Poland hasn't affected Poland. It is not in Eurozone, by the way. Yeap, lots of Polish workers still work in UK, but country is rising extremely fast. Last year they where rated as one of the most easiest place to do business.


Here, I can recommend a book for you. This will educate you on the political founding of the EU (I’ll give you a leg-up, it was the vision of Frenchman Jean Monnet, who conceived it as a geo-political counter-weight to the ‘over-dominant’ United States)

‘An Awkward Partner: Britain in the European Community’
http://www.amazon.com/An-Awkward-Partne ... ref=sr_1_3

And ironically I also found this book, which I expect might also interest you....

‘Poland Within the European Union: New Awkward Partner or New Heart of Europe? (Routledge Advances in European Politics)’
http://www.amazon.com/Poland-Within-Eur ... ref=sr_1_6


Thanks, I will look. You, probably, from UK according to what you write.
Brits have west-shifted mind. Most of them have no idea what is in central and eastern Europe going on. If they don't like UK, probably, they move to AU, US, NZ, because they know these countries and culture.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 2:57 am

@Vink2.
I thought you might enjoy this, from a UK broadsheet column by Janet Daley (she's Canadian).

--------------
'But does he [the British PM - David Cameron] not appreciate that this is the very antithesis of the founding principle of the EU? That its deliberate object was to curtail the power of its separate member states and the dangerous impulses of their volatile electorates, whose inclinations had a tendency to end in mass murder? It is not a travesty of the European project to say that it was a conspiracy of the European elites against their own peoples: it is the literal truth. Of course, the EU, with its unelected centralised governing bodies, overrides the democratic wishes of the nation states. That’s the whole point. This was a post-war French and German idea, devised to prevent any possibility of the hideous conflicts that devastated the continent during the last century. Its imperatives – the irreversible political integration of member states, a guarantee that national governments could never again go rogue, and the disempowering of electorates – arose directly from the 20th-century experience of criminal national leaders. The nation state, driven by the will of its own people, had been the demonic enemy of peace and the EU would put an end to it, once and for all.
--------------

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... hange.html

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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 8:47 am

As much as I'd like to read your book recommendations JR8, one isn't available on Kindle and the other is over $100 USD(!) for the digital version...

http://www.amazon.com/Poland-Within-Eur ... ref=sr_1_6

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Re: Singapore & US life cost comparison

Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 8:52 am

vink2 wrote:
zzm9980 wrote:I work for a company you didn't mention but is very often grouped with the three you mentioned. We hire and can get the appropriate H* visa for employees no problem any time of the year. There is no 'window' or time frame we worry about. I had an Indian friend on an H1B leave the company and find new employment at another large Silicon Valley MNC in weeks with no problems.


This may depends on nationality. Say, Chile & Singapore has free trade agreement with US and it is easier for them to get H1b visa.


Right. The examples I know are Indian citizens.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 9:21 am

vink2 wrote:Guys, some western European countries is not Europe, even those countries are very developed. Central & Eastern Europe is continue to raise, on the other hand.
Scandinavian countries, for example, the most developed and advanced countries on Earth. Don't tell me Germany, UK, Spain - I'm not a big fan of these countries.


Have you actually lived or worked in Scandinavia or just been brainwashed by the socialist propaganda that tells what is the correct way of measuring quality of life? I'm from one of those Scandinavian "heavens on Earth" and have lived & worked in another one. and I don't share your view. From a working person's point of view Singapore (note without an expat contract, which I've never had) is much better place for quality of life. From unemployed persons point of view, who is not willing to take the responsibility of his own life and finances, obviously Scandinavia wins. But even for them with the exception of Norway, I wouldn't count much on the promised pension plans to remain when I'm in retiring age.

Your Europe opinions seems to be quite biased and selective. You count more countries into Europe than any official statistics, even if miniature jokes of a countries are included. and still you ignore all the key economical powerhouses such as Germany being important part of Europe.

Sorry to say but Poland is not an economical power house, it's been developing fast until last year as it benefited from being so much behind Western Europe when it joined EU. But the growth is so depended on EU that it is already slowing down to the sluggish levels of rest of the EU. When you start from bottom it is not that difficult to grow fast.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 9:35 am

vink2 wrote:I know lots of Indian who want to return back to India after Singapore. This says a lot.


What does it say actually?

I know refugees in Scandinavia who want to return back to their home countries in civil war torn Africa.

For me it firstly says that people are homesick, they miss their home country
& family, where life is familiar to what they are used to. Not everyone adapts easily to a new environment. and of course there can be millions of other reasons.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:06 am

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
Have you actually lived or worked in Scandinavia or just been brainwashed by the socialist propaganda that tells what is the correct way of measuring quality of life? I'm from one of those Scandinavian "heavens on Earth" and have lived & worked in another one. and I don't share your view. From a working person's point of view Singapore (note without an expat contract, which I've never had) is much better place for quality of life. From unemployed persons point of view, who is not willing to take the responsibility of his own life and finances, obviously Scandinavia wins. But even for them with the exception of Norway, I wouldn't count much on the promised pension plans to remain when I'm in retiring age.


So which Scandinavian country you are from and what is your nationality? I suspect that you are not European.
Do you want to say that you are going to change European passport for local? If no, why not?
Very funny to hear. We have so many Scandinavians in Singapore who are okay to work for non-expatriate salaries. I personally know, do you know how many? Zero.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:19 am

vink2, there's an old English expression (OK, it's from Western Europe and therefore doesn't count in your mind): When the hole you're in is getting deeper and deeper, stop digging. :roll:
Be careful what you wish for

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:26 am

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
Have you actually lived or worked in Scandinavia or just been brainwashed by the socialist propaganda that tells what is the correct way of measuring quality of life? I'm from one of those Scandinavian "heavens on Earth" and have lived & worked in another one. and I don't share your view. From a working person's point of view Singapore (note without an expat contract, which I've never had) is much better place for quality of life. From unemployed persons point of view, who is not willing to take the responsibility of his own life and finances, obviously Scandinavia wins. But even for them with the exception of Norway, I wouldn't count much on the promised pension plans to remain when I'm in retiring age.


So which Scandinavian country you are from and what is your nationality? I suspect that you are not European.
Do you want to say that you are going to change European passport for local? If no, why not?
Very funny to hear. We have so many Scandinavians in Singapore who are okay to work for non-expatriate salaries. I personally know, do you know how many? Zero.



Maybe you'd like to share which country you are from and where does yr great knowledge of Scandinavia comes from. With you two weeks of posting and the accusations you like to make about other posters you are starting to look like a troll.

To meet Scandinavian expats who live here without expat package you might have to move out of the expat wife clubs of socializing, but there's lot of them hanging around.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:48 am

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
Have you actually lived or worked in Scandinavia or just been brainwashed by the socialist propaganda that tells what is the correct way of measuring quality of life? I'm from one of those Scandinavian "heavens on Earth" and have lived & worked in another one. and I don't share your view. From a working person's point of view Singapore (note without an expat contract, which I've never had) is much better place for quality of life. From unemployed persons point of view, who is not willing to take the responsibility of his own life and finances, obviously Scandinavia wins. But even for them with the exception of Norway, I wouldn't count much on the promised pension plans to remain when I'm in retiring age.


So which Scandinavian country you are from and what is your nationality? I suspect that you are not European.
Do you want to say that you are going to change European passport for local? If no, why not?
Very funny to hear. We have so many Scandinavians in Singapore who are okay to work for non-expatriate salaries. I personally know, do you know how many? Zero.



Maybe you'd like to share which country you are from and where does yr great knowledge of Scandinavia comes from. With you two weeks of posting and the accusations you like to make about other posters you are starting to look like a troll.

To meet Scandinavian expats who live here without expat package you might have to move out of the expat wife clubs of socializing, but there's lot of them hanging around.


Who said that Europe doesn't have poor people who will be okay without expat package? Every country have some of them.
But if you are skilled guy, don't tell me bad about Scandinavia. Sounds like trolling. I have expat friend working in Norway. He makes a lot of money.

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Postby ProvenPracticalFlexible » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:36 am

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:
Have you actually lived or worked in Scandinavia or just been brainwashed by the socialist propaganda that tells what is the correct way of measuring quality of life? I'm from one of those Scandinavian "heavens on Earth" and have lived & worked in another one. and I don't share your view. From a working person's point of view Singapore (note without an expat contract, which I've never had) is much better place for quality of life. From unemployed persons point of view, who is not willing to take the responsibility of his own life and finances, obviously Scandinavia wins. But even for them with the exception of Norway, I wouldn't count much on the promised pension plans to remain when I'm in retiring age.


So which Scandinavian country you are from and what is your nationality? I suspect that you are not European.
Do you want to say that you are going to change European passport for local? If no, why not?
Very funny to hear. We have so many Scandinavians in Singapore who are okay to work for non-expatriate salaries. I personally know, do you know how many? Zero.



Maybe you'd like to share which country you are from and where does yr great knowledge of Scandinavia comes from. With you two weeks of posting and the accusations you like to make about other posters you are starting to look like a troll.

To meet Scandinavian expats who live here without expat package you might have to move out of the expat wife clubs of socializing, but there's lot of them hanging around.


Who said that Europe doesn't have poor people who will be okay without expat package? Every country have some of them.
But if you are skilled guy, don't tell me bad about Scandinavia. Sounds like trolling. I have expat friend working in Norway. He makes a lot of money.


You really sound more and more like that you don't know anything about Scandinavia. Unemployed are much better of there, and so are the lowskilled workers like cleaners, bus drivers etc, as they benefit from the system when they receive more than they pay in taxes. If you wanna close your ears and eyes from opinion that are different than yours that fine, but maybe you shouldn't write your very biased views as facts here.

It's on the other end when you are paying 45-50% in income tax and do not use much of the public services than you suffer and can make much much better living standards in Singapore., when the local government is happy with a fraction of that money. So it is exactly the skilled guys who migrate out from Scandinavia.

A friend who works in Norway, that certainly is impressive amount of knowledge. So please leave it if this is what you know about Scandinavia.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 11:49 am

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:You really sound more and more like that you don't know anything about Scandinavia. Unemployed are much better of there, and so are the lowskilled workers like cleaners, bus drivers etc, as they benefit from the system when they receive more than they pay in taxes. If you wanna close your ears and eyes from opinion that are different than yours that fine, but maybe you shouldn't write your very biased views as facts here.

So you are blue collar, aren't you?

ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:A friend who works in Norway, that certainly is impressive amount of knowledge. So please leave it if this is what you know about Scandinavia.


Mate, I worked for large Danish company together with Danes, my manager was native Dane. The pay was great, the way the treat people also great. Should you need more examples, I may find you. But you still haven't answered my question: are you European born? Are you from Norway, Sweden, Denmark or Finland? I don't believe you, as I said I have 30 years European experience and I was born in Europe.
I guess you are local who used to live in Iceland or Estonia.

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Postby zzm9980 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:22 pm

vink2 wrote:
ProvenPracticalFlexible wrote:You really sound more and more like that you don't know anything about Scandinavia. Unemployed are much better of there, and so are the lowskilled workers like cleaners, bus drivers etc, as they benefit from the system when they receive more than they pay in taxes. If you wanna close your ears and eyes from opinion that are different than yours that fine, but maybe you shouldn't write your very biased views as facts here.

So you are blue collar, aren't you?


You appear to have a reading comprehension problem if that's the conclusion you came to from the selection you quoted.

vink2 wrote:, as I said I have 30 years European experience and I was born in Europe.


Based on your poor reading comprehension and your careful wording here, I'm guessing you're not actually European, but from a migrant or refugee family, who has benefited greatly from the social policies PPF is criticizing.

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Postby vink2 » Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:24 pm

zzm9980 wrote:Based on your poor reading comprehension and your careful wording here, I'm guessing you're not actually European, but from a migrant or refugee family, who has benefited greatly from the social policies PPF is criticizing.


Dream on! :D :D :D :D :D

PPF claims that he doesn't make here too much (no expat package).
I'm very familiar with local salaries and salaries in Nordic countries.
Probably he doesn't say everything.


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