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Singaporeans obsession with Plastic bags

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rajagainstthemachine
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 3:38 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:2. Plasticizers (phthalates) and bisphenol A (BPA) are chemicals found in lots of household products.[..]
Hazards:

Bisphenol A is thought to be an endocrine disruptor which can mimic estrogen and may lead to negative health effects

in fact this particular product has so many health hazards that you need to read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A#Health_effects

My Mom is a pretty old lady so she has naturally some health related problems and often goes to a doctor. The doctor prescribes her medicine, she goes back home and then before she starts to take it, reads first all the data available especially on side effects and hazards. So for example, she may find that the medicine can damage her liver if taken too long or overdosed, or kidneys, stuff like this. She is sometimes so impressed by the list of hazards that she does not take the medicine. She probably thinks a bit over the line that it must be a very dangerous medicine if on the list of possible hazards there is anything that sounds not quite right. I already gave up long time ago trying to explain to her that the exposure level and time is a key (no, I am not using with her this kind kind of language) and that practically everything including Oxygen can be toxic. She is a sort of victim of her own fears but in other areas people are often victims of various eco-terrorists.



:lol: i know a lot of super paranoid people like that too. I all to aware of the tolerable/permissible limit for various chemicals , but there are some factors drug/chemical/fertilizer companies do not disclose and that is the behaviour of the combination of these chemicals in the human body.

eg. you eat a salad and there are 10 types of vegetables and every one has been subjected to a different type of fertilizer and when that heady elixir of chemicals hits your body the combined reaction is unknown.

Interestingly the same company that manufacture chemicals/fertilizer/seeds and who are into GMI are the same companies that are into cancer research.
any surprise?

watch these little clips and possibly get the whole documentary

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcwCK4AWKdM

2.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUaRi7CHASo

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 3:58 pm

Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.

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Postby WanWanWan » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:04 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:Styrene is regarded as a "hazardous chemical", especially in case of eye contact, but also in case of skin contact, of ingestion and of inhalation, according to several sources. Styrene is largely metabolized into styrene oxide in humans, resulting from oxidation by cytochrome P450. styrene oxide is considered toxic, mutagenic, and possibly carcinogenic

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has described styrene to be "a suspected toxin to the gastrointestinal tract, kidney, and respiratory system, among others. On 10 June 2011, the U.S. National Toxicology Program has described styrene as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen"


Styrene is one of the more benign industrially used unsaturated monomers and the likelihood of significant exposure from any of the styrofoam products is in practical terms ZERO. Of course you can buy it from fine chemical suppliers pour to your eyes or drink it and get what you described above.


Let's not forget that it occurs naturally in many meat and dairy products (e.g. a nice old steak) either. Mmmmm styrene...

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:08 pm

x9200 wrote:Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.


I don't believe all of the vast theories out there, you have to read in between lines when dealing with the opponents and proponents alike.
I try to live as normally as I can without sounding paranoid. I however,draw a fine line when it comes to using certain products especially those containing aspartame and Bis-A as these are proven carcinogens.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:10 pm

Brah wrote:
WanWanWan wrote:Oh, and if you want a good accessible example of a plastic that decomposes with water? Try a Cadbury's Milk Tray (not sure if they sell them in Singapore). The 'tray' part dissolves pretty quickly if you get it wet, and is then edible (but it tastes like cardboard).

Although it's edible, how safe is it? Doesn't the plastic leach into the food, especially in hot weather?

I can not google anything on this but It doesn't need to be "plastic". Imagine a composite made of starch and cellulose (paper). You can eat it probably few times a day for longer time.

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:14 pm

WanWanWan wrote:
x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:Styrene is regarded as a "hazardous chemical", especially in case of eye contact, but also in case of skin contact, of ingestion and of inhalation, according to several sources. Styrene is largely metabolized into styrene oxide in humans, resulting from oxidation by cytochrome P450. styrene oxide is considered toxic, mutagenic, and possibly carcinogenic

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has described styrene to be "a suspected toxin to the gastrointestinal tract, kidney, and respiratory system, among others. On 10 June 2011, the U.S. National Toxicology Program has described styrene as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen"


Styrene is one of the more benign industrially used unsaturated monomers and the likelihood of significant exposure from any of the styrofoam products is in practical terms ZERO. Of course you can buy it from fine chemical suppliers pour to your eyes or drink it and get what you described above.


Let's not forget that it occurs naturally in many meat and dairy products (e.g. a nice old steak) either. Mmmmm styrene...



maybe this article will make you chew on that steak a bit more

http://www.olivegreen.com.sg/pdf/Styrof ... keting.pdf

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:21 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.


I don't believe all of the vast theories out there, you have to read in between lines when dealing with the opponents and proponents alike.
I try to live as normally as I can without sounding paranoid. I however,draw a fine line when it comes to using certain products especially those containing aspartame and Bis-A as these are proven carcinogens.

You don't have any CDs/DVDs/BDs at home? :)

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 4:37 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:maybe this article will make you chew on that steak a bit more

###url removed###


Raja, if you want to discuss anything on scientific ground please give me a link to a scientific paper not a brochure made by some company that advertises itself as green so probably have some interest in making people believe that the danger is around. Can your read between the lines what I said earlier about one specific community? Not only I am in but I am also a right flavor for a discussion like this. I know how is it made, I know what is sitting inside, I know what migrates or can migrate under specific condition. This is my background. And I give no sh*t about all these things because I am also painfully aware of the benefits that we get from all these materials and the exposure levels.

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 5:18 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:maybe this article will make you chew on that steak a bit more

###url removed###


Raja, if you want to discuss anything on scientific ground please give me a link to a scientific paper not a brochure made by some company that advertises itself as green so probably have some interest in making people believe that the danger is around. Can your read between the lines what I said earlier about one specific community? Not only I am in but I am also a right flavor for a discussion like this. I know how is it made, I know what is sitting inside, I know what migrates or can migrate under specific condition. This is my background. And I give no sh*t about all these things because I am also painfully aware of the benefits that we get from all these materials and the exposure levels.


I tried looking for scientific papers on the Internet, usually these are classified documents not available on the public domain. You probably realize it too.
Btw the only reason I posted that brochure was that it was a Singaporean Company that was trying to bring awareness and if you really went through that document its bibliography lists a lot of scientific articles

notably :
1. 13. George Baggett, "Styrene Migration Into Human Adipose Tissue," August, 7, 1990.

2. N.S. Zlobina, A.S. Izjumova, and N.Ju. Ragul'e, "Effects of Low Styrene Concentrations On The Specific Functions of the Female Organism" (human and white rat), Gigiena truda i professional'nye sabolenavija, Moskva, USSR, December 1975, No. 12, pages 21-25.

3. http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/styre-sd.pdf

4. http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol82/82-07.html

For resources 1 and 2 I think the public library would be a good place to start looking I suppose


edit : my names Raj not Raja :)

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 5:23 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.


I don't believe all of the vast theories out there, you have to read in between lines when dealing with the opponents and proponents alike.
I try to live as normally as I can without sounding paranoid. I however,draw a fine line when it comes to using certain products especially those containing aspartame and Bis-A as these are proven carcinogens.

You don't have any CDs/DVDs/BDs at home? :)



:D they aren't consumables are they? or is there any other way Bis-A gets into the system ?

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Postby WanWanWan » Sun, 17 Feb 2013 5:32 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:I tried looking for scientific papers on the Internet, usually these are classified documents not available on the public domain. You probably realize it too.

Try looking at the references to the Wikipedia articles on styrene and polystyrene--especially the literature reviews, since they hold more weight than individual studies. The abstracts and conclusions of most are accessible (which is why they are on Wiki).
http://journals.lww.com/joem/Abstract/2009/11000/Epidemiologic_Studies_of_Styrene_and_Cancer__A.5.aspx is a lit review from the styrene article, and it concludes that most of the positive correlation studies are not causal and all we have is a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Or, use Google scholar. Some papers you need to pay to access, but there are many more which are free to the general public.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 9:05 am

rajagainstthemachine wrote:I tried looking for scientific papers on the Internet, usually these are classified documents not available on the public domain. You probably realize it too.

They are not classified, they are just paid, but still a valid way to handle this kind of argument is to have a data backed up with scientific methodology.

Btw the only reason I posted that brochure was that it was a Singaporean Company that was trying to bring awareness and if you really went through that document its bibliography lists a lot of scientific articles

My point form the very beginning and starting with my Mom's example is that while some data are factually correct if served to people who don't have proper background knowledge they are misleading at best and are manipulation at worst. Everything can be lethal. If I tell you that the use of a wooden school ruler may lead to blindness and death, this is also factually correct but you have enough knowledge to realize what would be the circumstances. When it comes to chemistry it is pretty much terra incognita for vast majority of the public so what remains from the message is that is hazardous, can cause cancer etc., all blown out of any proportions.


notably :
1. 13. George Baggett, "Styrene Migration Into Human Adipose Tissue," August, 7, 1990.

2. N.S. Zlobina, A.S. Izjumova, and N.Ju. Ragul'e, "Effects of Low Styrene Concentrations On The Specific Functions of the Female Organism" (human and white rat), Gigiena truda i professional'nye sabolenavija, Moskva, USSR, December 1975, No. 12, pages 21-25.

3. http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/styre-sd.pdf

4. http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol82/82-07.html

The above are describing the effects of Styrene on this or that. These effect are not in question. What is, whether in normal use, in any of the commonly available products we will encounter such exposure and for this to my knowledge the answer is NO. I bet it is more likely you will die from the school ruler misuse than from Styrene overexposure.

For resources 1 and 2 I think the public library would be a good place to start looking I suppose


edit : my names Raj not Raja :)

Oh sorry, but I guess you don't feel too offended? :)


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Postby x9200 » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 9:29 am

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.


I don't believe all of the vast theories out there, you have to read in between lines when dealing with the opponents and proponents alike.
I try to live as normally as I can without sounding paranoid. I however,draw a fine line when it comes to using certain products especially those containing aspartame and Bis-A as these are proven carcinogens.

You don't have any CDs/DVDs/BDs at home? :)



:D they aren't consumables are they? or is there any other way Bis-A gets into the system ?


Your skin is typically moist and Bisphenol A (B-A) is partly soluble in water. Probably it is even better soluble in sweat due to its slightly acidic nature. Each time you touch CD/DVD surface some traces of Bisphenol A are transferred to your skin and later can enter your body. Each time you listen to the records the disks heat up what likely allows better migration of B-A from the bulk of the material to its surface. The boiling point of B-A is above 200 deg C but it does not mean its molecules are not leaving to the surrounding by evaporation even from the solid state. So you have it too in the air. Of course, when the disks are heated the process get accelerated. You breath in part of it too.

If we have to be paranoid lets be at least consequent and not use any B-A based polycarbonates :)

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 9:37 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:I tried looking for scientific papers on the Internet, usually these are classified documents not available on the public domain. You probably realize it too.

They are not classified, they are just paid, but still a valid way to handle this kind of argument is to have a data backed up with scientific methodology.


give me your credit card details then :P , but yes I agree with you





Btw the only reason I posted that brochure was that it was a Singaporean Company that was trying to bring awareness and if you really went through that document its bibliography lists a lot of scientific articles

My point form the very beginning and starting with my Mom's example is that while some data are factually correct if served to people who don't have proper background knowledge they are misleading at best and are manipulation at worst. Everything can be lethal. If I tell you that the use of a wooden school ruler may lead to blindness and death, this is also factually correct but you have enough knowledge to realize what would be the circumstances. When it comes to chemistry it is pretty much terra incognita for vast majority of the public so what remains from the message is that is hazardous, can cause cancer etc., all blown out of any proportions.



while I concur with you about the ruler theory and the shock paranoia that most environmental groups try to project to people I tend to lean towards credible science for tangible proof about a certain product and its hazards.

What I really want to highlight was, given the availability of natural products like Jute, Palm, coir, banana leaves,bamboo for the manufacture of bags, food containers should be encouraged as usage of these products give the following distinct advantages.

1. provide employment for many poor people who can start cottage industries. [ this already happens in India a lot]

2. the decomposition of natural products is much quicker than say styrene/plastics

3. the impact on wildlife caused by mindless use of plastics can be avoided.
as many animals choke and die eating these products,



notably :
1. 13. George Baggett, "Styrene Migration Into Human Adipose Tissue," August, 7, 1990.

2. N.S. Zlobina, A.S. Izjumova, and N.Ju. Ragul'e, "Effects of Low Styrene Concentrations On The Specific Functions of the Female Organism" (human and white rat), Gigiena truda i professional'nye sabolenavija, Moskva, USSR, December 1975, No. 12, pages 21-25.

3. http://www.epa.gov/chemfact/styre-sd.pdf

4. http://www.inchem.org/documents/iarc/vol82/82-07.html

The above are describing the effects of Styrene on this or that. These effect are not in question. What is, whether in normal use, in any of the commonly available products we will encounter such exposure and for this to my knowledge the answer is NO. I bet it is more likely you will die from the school ruler misuse than from Styrene overexposure.


Let me ask you a question, would you prefer to eat your food served to you in a polystyrene container thats going to possibly take years to disintegrate or would you prefer to be served to you in a biodegradable palm container which would provide the same quality as the polystyrene and then decompose in 5-10 days?


For resources 1 and 2 I think the public library would be a good place to start looking I suppose


edit : my names Raj not Raja :)

Oh sorry, but I guess you don't feel too offended? :)

nah not really :)


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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Mon, 18 Feb 2013 9:43 pm

x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
x9200 wrote:Raja, it's really hard to make any rational discussion based on conspiracy theories. Maybe it happens from time to time but I doubt it is any common. Some people just seem to feed on other people fears. If you were exposed to some chemists community you would see how they take this kind sh*t. Hard to believe the people most close to the oven are all that wrong.


I don't believe all of the vast theories out there, you have to read in between lines when dealing with the opponents and proponents alike.
I try to live as normally as I can without sounding paranoid. I however,draw a fine line when it comes to using certain products especially those containing aspartame and Bis-A as these are proven carcinogens.

You don't have any CDs/DVDs/BDs at home? :)



:D they aren't consumables are they? or is there any other way Bis-A gets into the system ?


Your skin is typically moist and Bisphenol A (B-A) is partly soluble in water. Probably it is even better soluble in sweat due to its slightly acidic nature. Each time you touch CD/DVD surface some traces of Bisphenol A are transferred to your skin and later can enter your body. Each time you listen to the records the disks heat up what likely allows better migration of B-A from the bulk of the material to its surface. The boiling point of B-A is above 200 deg C but it does not mean its molecules are not leaving to the surrounding by evaporation even from the solid state. So you have it too in the air. Of course, when the disks are heated the process get accelerated. You breath in part of it too.

If we have to be paranoid lets be at least consequent and not use any B-A based polycarbonates :)


This is me playing my fav cd at home
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