NS Defaulter 40+ yr old

[OneGoodSon]

You are funny as hell, OneDebatableSon, I'm a PR and not a citizen and have been one for 25 years. So I didn't vote for the PAP. I have news for you. You are a dual citizen and will continue to be so until you sort out your NS obligation. The fact that you can submit your renunciation via form does not mean the government will or has to accept it. The same is true of the United States in that regard.

It's just like the MOM self assessment test regarding the gaining of an employment pass. It only means they will accept the application form if you qualify, but it does not mean that they will GIVE you the pass.

Therefore, you will always be a dual citizen and the moment you end up in Singapore against your wishes is the moment your worst nightmares will come true. Frankly, if it were up to me, I definitely give you your renunciation as the country is better of without worthless users of oxygen who have chicken blood running in their veins. If you didn't like how the country was being run, why didn't you do something about it? No cojones? Oh, that's obvious, as you ran away from your birthright obligations. Dog help the country who has you now as they don't realize what a mistake they've made.

Listen to yourself! You sound so cynical. What kind of moderator is so insulting?

Look I didn't run away from my obligations. My whole family decided to move FROM Singapore to start a new life somewhere else. What don't you get about this?

And please stop thinking you are better than me, or others. Your arrogance is not warranted in this forum. And you should NOT be a moderator.

Don't blame me. What don't I get about it? Blame your parents for not following proper protocol. Thousands follow the proper procedure every year and don't have a problem. So, be sure to thank your parents for the mess you are in. Why didn't you check out you liabilities when you were a teen? Surely you knew that it was an obligation and yet you didn't check out your options. You just buried your head in the sand and just hoped it would go away. Your arrogance surpasses mine by a long shot because you were only looking for some agreement/sympathy here. When it didn't come, you started getting antsy. Good Luck.

Oh, I am not replying in a moderators mode. If I am, you would already have known it.

Let's be clear. I'm not looking for sympathy. I am asking for confirmation on how to renounce. Why haven't you taken up citizenship if it were so good there? Afraid that the PAP would pull a fast one on you. I agree with you that it was an obligation if I intended to stay a Singaporean. We did put family needs over country, and this is why lots of people migrate. It's like quitting a job. Once you quit, you have no obligations to your old job.

I am not antsy because I have no intentions on visiting Singapore again. Like I said, all I intend to do is to renounce and sever. What I did at 16 years of age by emigrating is NOT a crime. It might be in the eyes of the Singapore PAP party. There was no harm done except that it did not satisfy PAP's ideals. I chose NOT to be Singaporean, and the PAP should just accept that their citizens are not robots, but free thinkers to choose their life paths. What they are doing and responses I got from you just affirms my resolve to cut off all official ties with Singapore, and all the shallow and narrow-mindedness associated with that place.

Singapore is nothing more than a glorified dictatorship with the pretense of democracy. Singapore law is the joke of the world, with its kangaroo courts who dare not be contrarian to PAP, in case they get sued and bankrupted themselves. Definitely not a place most people want to live in, unless they have no choice. Given the choice, lots of male Singaporeans would likely choose to RUN far away, except they are bounded by this archaic NS law that ties males to the city state. I personally have met many ex-SAF Air Force personnel who have emigrated 25 years ago and never even set foot again back in Singapore. Why? It's all the ridiculous policies and laws that drive Singaporeans to move! They completely severed all ties, and I guarantee many more will follow, if PAP makes it easier for them. But then again, if Singaporeans have more guts, they would have turfed PAP out long ago. Looks like none of this NS bullshit did not make them able to stand up for themselves. Rather they learn how to be submissive to what PAP is shoving down their throats.

Like what PAP is doing to you. You would make a great follower, NOT a leader. You don't question their policies. You treat what they say as gospel. Not forgiving and understanding of other people's circumstances and the choices they make. Not willing to let bygones be bygones. NOT the kind of person who could survive anywhere else except for tiny Singapore. And that's the reason you are there now. Been 25 years and not a citizen? Tsk Tsk. I became a new citizen of my new country as soon I got the chance. It's just that now I CANNOT get rid of my Singaporean citizenship fast enough. The sad thing is, like you said, they might NOT even let me. What a bunch of crock. Now I hope you work for the PAP and tell them you think they should just let me go because you think I am so unworthy of Singapore, once and for all.

I'm just giving you a piece of my mind because I feel your insulting responses are not warranted in this forum, especially for those trying to find information pertaining to these tricky NS issues. Please be aware that not everyone is as perfect as you. We are trying to right the wrong (in PAP's eyes), and resolve, and move forward. Thank you.

[sundaymorningstaple]

We have already told you that you will need to appear before the ICA and Mindef in order to get cleared and will probably garner at least a 5K fine at the very least. You cannot accept that and instead try to used a paragraph from the constitution that only gives the framework and not the nuances of the laws and how they are implemented. Therefore are lashing out at all who are giving you a piece of mind. I'm a Nam Vet, I disagreed with the VN war, but I'm still an American and did my duty. And would do it again if they asked me to. I'm thankful for the safety of my country (at least back then). I'm also proud that my son, who IS a Singaporean, that he did HIS national service to his country, without qualms, even though he'd have rather not had to do it (like most). His father wasn't a quitter and didn't raise his son to be one either. Sadly, not all are of that cut. Good Day.

[PNGMK]

Alright. Thanks PNGMK.

My main concern is that when you email the Singapore Embassy with those details you will receive a response (which SMS has previously provided verbatim on this forum from a friend of his) to the effect of "There are outstanding issues with CMBP Mindef that need to be resolved before....". You are right thought in that the 'form' now appears to be available in overseas Singapore missions.

The http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relocat ... itizenship" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; website states;

In addition, for a male citizen, the government may withhold the registration of declaration of renunciation of Singapore Citizenship under Article 128(2)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore, the provisions which are listed below:

SNIP

If the declaration is made by a person subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has:

Discharged his liability for full-time service under Section 12 of the Act
Rendered at least 3 years of service under Section 13 of the Act in lieu of such full-time service
Complied with such conditions as may be determined by the Government

What this essentially implies is that if the male citizen is subject to the Enlistment Act and has not discharged his duty for National Service (or equivalent service), the Government has the right to withhold his renunciation of Singapore Citizenship

[OneGoodSon]

Alright. Thanks PNGMK.

My main concern is that when you email the Singapore Embassy with those details you will receive a response (which SMS has previously provided verbatim on this forum from a friend of his) to the effect of "There are outstanding issues with CMBP Mindef that need to be resolved before....". You are right thought in that the 'form' now appears to be available in overseas Singapore missions.

The http://www.guidemesingapore.com/relocat ... itizenship" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; website states;

In addition, for a , Male citizen, the government may withhold the registration of declaration of renunciation of Singapore Citizenship under Article 128(2)(b) of the Constitution of the Republic of Singapore, the provisions which are listed below:

SNIP

If the declaration is made by a person subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has:

Discharged his liability for full-time service under Section 12 of the Act
Rendered at least 3 years of service under Section 13 of the Act in lieu of such full-time service
Complied with such conditions as may be determined by the Government

What this essentially implies is that if the , Male citizen is subject to the Enlistment Act and has not discharged his duty for National Service (or equivalent service), the Government has the right to withhold his renunciation of Singapore Citizenship

Yes it's definitely concerning they might say no, which I will not be surprised given how PAP conducts their business. However I am no longer bounded by the Enlistment Act, as I'm over 40. So based on the Singapore Constitution and Enlistment Act, the PAP government cannot deny me renunciation of my Singapore Citizenship, based on the law that they wrote themselves.

This, according to the Enlistment Act:

“person subject to this Act” means a person who is a citizen of Singapore or a permanent resident thereof and who is not less than 16 years and 6 months of age and not more than 40 years of age or, in the case of a person who —
(a)
is an officer of the armed forces or a senior military expert; or
[28/2009 wef 01/04/2010]
(b)
is skilled in an occupation which the Minister by notification in the Gazette designates as an occupation required to meet the needs of the armed forces,
not more than 50 years of age;

[PNGMK]

Look - I'm not going to do an SMS but you ARE reading as much as you can into this;

What do you think this means?

Complied with such conditions as may be determined by the Government

It the equivelant of (in the olde terms) - "At Her Majesty's pleasure". In other words you WILL NOT be able to renounce your SC unless all terms are satisfied and even then the government can still chose to deny you because... well they are the government. As SMS pointed out also there is the law; and then there are the regulations (and I think this where I am concerned your plan will come undone).

I wish you well. Please keep us up to date (even if the outcome is not as you wish).

Think of it this way; if the government allows you to renounce and you did not complete your NS obligation; once you are a foreign citizen they have no hold on you. Do you think they really will let you out that way? Not this government - they have clearly indicated; in multiple speeches in parliament, in multiple prosecutions - that there is NO get out of jail card for NS defaulters.

Once again; I wish you well. I am not against what you're trying to do. Withdrawal of labour (or avoidance of conscripted service) is a basic human right as far as I am concerned. (Edit; for personal reasons - my mother's father was a conscripted into a megalomaniacs evil army - not his choice - and was killed as a result, I support draft dodgers because no one in Germany at the time supported HIS right to object to an unjust and evil regime).

Final edit: You may not be bound to serve under the enlistment act as per your age TODAY but your actions prior (when you were eligible) are what will count in court and in the assessment by CMPB. From what I can tell there is no statute of limitations on these sort of things.

[taxico]

if you don't return to the island (to settle your outstanding matters), you can't renounce your citizenship.

since you don't intend to ever return to the island (willingly), you won't be able to renounce.

that's really all you need to know right now. of course, if you find a way to renounce (like you've imagined in your mind), and are successful, please do share it with people on the internet - if not here, then perhaps elsewhere. you will be helping others.

you will probably have better luck changing your name than just hoping nothing happens to you in future (and arguing with people on the internet).

btw, there are jobs out there that aren't as simple as "i quit, bye bye." some jobs have a hold over you for a long long time. i'm not surprised a person such as yourself used such an example though.

comparing singapore citizenship to a $5/hr job you can skip out on is hardly fair nor apt. rightly so.

good luck. you'll need it.

[FreeSpiritRunner]

Looks like the OP has a lot of company. You can't blame the guy for trying to break ties with a city state with laws that don't quite fit a "democracy".

For the OP, here are a few avenues:
1) Try renouncing anyways, and hope that Mindef will let you off. In the process you would have to supply a lot of personal details to them, such as employment history (job title, company, salary), citizenship info about immediate family (name, relationship, NRIC, DOB, date renounced, current citizenship, etc) with your parents/siblings info, plus your spouse/kids included even if they are not Singaporean, and finally your new passport/citizenship info.
2) Wait for 2016 GE, or 2021 GE, etc, and hope that PAP loses power, and NS is abolished
3) Become rich and powerful
4) Don't do anything at all, and don't come back to Singapore. Life is too short, and the world is large enough. Singaporeans are by and large materialistic and quite shallow and judgemental, so you are not missing much.

Does anyone know what Mindef or ICA can do with all that collected info in #1?

[FreeSpiritRunner]

According to the government, there were 200,000 overseas Singaporean in 2012, up from 157,100 in 2003.

http://app.msf.gov.sg/Portals/0/Files/S ... f2012a.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[sundaymorningstaple]

According to the government, there were 200,000 overseas Singaporean in 2012, up from 157,100 in 2003.

http://app.msf.gov.sg/Portals/0/Files/S ... f2012a.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't mean they are all illegally overseas or defaulters, does it.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Of those who returned to do NS (what was the figure? 700+ versus 199 who didn't) how many do you know that didn't do it voluntarily? Of the 199 that "Never" returned to Singapore, how many are still alive? ("Never returned" insinuates that they are all dead, doesn't it?) Frankly, it's people like you who NEED NS in order to grow up a little.

[taxico]

excerpt from Ministerial Statement on National Service Defaulters by Minister for Defence Teo Chee Hean (ie, Melvyn Tan saga. emphasis, if any, are mine)

16 Jan 2006, 1610 hours (GMT +8)
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_ ... 06_nr.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...MINDEF has consistently taken a tough stand against those who default on their National Service obligations. We have introduced various measures over the years to prevent such persons from evading National Service. For example, the Constitution was amended in 1979 so that those who refused to serve could not escape their National Service obligation by simply renouncing their citizenship. Only those who have emigrated at a young age and have not enjoyed substantial socio-economic benefits are allowed to renounce their citizenship without serving National Service.

Since 1970, we have required pre-enlistees who are going overseas for an extended period to post a bond as a promise that they will return to fulfil their National Service obligation... Since 1992, the bond quantum has been set at $75,000 or half the combined annual income of the parents, whichever is higher. The bond is however not a substitute for National Service. If a pre-enlistee fails to return to serve his National Service, not only has he broken his bond but, more importantly, he has broken his promise and broken the law by not returning to fulfil his National Service obligation. The bond quantum that is forfeited is the penalty he has to pay for breaking the bond. It is not redemption and not a substitute for National Service. He still has to face the law for failing to comply with his National Service obligations under the Enlistment Act; and he still remains liable for National Service.

...Every year only a small number, about 0.5% of those liable for NS each year, or on average 100 unresolved cases of NS defaulters a year over the past five years, fail to register or enlist for National Service, or fail to return after their exit permits expired. The vast majority of these defaulters are overseas.

An average of 12 NS defaulters a year were charged in Court for failing to comply with the Enlistment Act... Besides answering to the Court, NS defaulters who are still Singaporeans and below the age of 40 will have to serve National Service.

...Over the past 20 years, 185 NS defaulters have been convicted in Court for Enlistment Act offences. Of these, 43 received jail sentences, 140 were fined and two were punished in connection with other civil offences. Of the 140 who were fined, 35 were ultimately jailed when they did not pay their fines.

Of the 185 convicted defaulters, 127 were enlisted or are awaiting enlistment for National Service following their convictions. Two were supposed to enlist but defaulted again prior to their enlistment. 33 were not drafted as they were unsuitable for enlistment for security or medical reasons - they would not have been enlisted in any case even if they had not defaulted on NS. The remaining 23 were not drafted because they were either above the statutory age limit or no longer Singaporeans...

The majority of cases so far have been those who returned at a relatively young age and were still able to fulfil their National Service obligations. Half of those charged in Court over the past 20 years returned at age 21 or younger, and 80% returned at age 28 or younger. A fine for such NS defaulters was not inappropriate as they were still able to serve their National Service obligations in full.

However, Melvyn Tan’s case has highlighted an inadequacy in penalties for those who have defaulted for so many years that they are no longer able to discharge their National Service obligations in full. Since the appeal case in the High Court in 1993, besides Melvyn Tan, there have been 13 other cases of convicted defaulters who were sentenced only to a fine and who were not subsequently enlisted because they were already over 40 or almost 40. This is something that we need to look into more closely, especially as there may now be more defaulters who are 40 or older coming before the courts with the passing of time.

MINDEF does not consider it necessary at this time to seek a minimum mandatory jail sentence for Enlistment Act offences, as the circumstances of the cases vary widely. Howeve, from now on, MINDEF will ask the prosecutor to press for a jail sentence in serious cases of NS defaulters, and explain why we consider a jail sentence appropriate in a particular case. Serious cases include those who default on their full-time National Service responsibilities for two years or longer from the time they were required to register or enlist, or from the time their exit permits expired for those granted deferment, whichever is later. We believe that it is in the public interest that such NS defaulters face a jail sentence, unless there are mitigating circumstances.

I would like to provide some illustrations of what MINDEF considers to be sentences appropriate to the nature of the offence or commensurate with its gravity:

- Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.

- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his operationally ready NS obligations in full, a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS he has evaded may be appropriate.

- Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot be called up for NS at all, a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years may be appropriate.

In all instances, we expect that the Court will take into account whatever aggravating or mitigating circumstances there may be in each case to determine the appropriate sentence.

[glitterbox]

MINDEF policy has changed to be much more hard line.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/press_ ... t.img.html

You will note that MINDEF is pushing for custodial sentences now in all cases - this is a 2012 statement.

Over the past three years, five National Service (NS) defaulters have been sentenced to imprisonment by the Court.

To maintain equity of treatment and the commitment for all who are liable to serve their NS, it is necessary to take a tough stand against the few who default on their NS obligations. MINDEF will press for a custodial sentence on the NS defaulter based on the length of default and the following guidelines:

a. Short jail sentence. Where the default period exceeds two years but the defaulter is young enough to serve his full-time and operationally ready NS (ORNS) duties in full, MINDEF will press for a short jail sentence.

b. Longer jail sentence. Where the defaulter has reached an age when he cannot serve his full-time NS in a combat vocation or fulfil his ORNS obligations in full, MINDEF will press for a longer jail sentence to reflect the period of NS evaded.

c. Maximum jail sentence. Where the defaulter has passed the age of 40 and cannot be called up for NS at all, MINDEF will press for a jail sentence up to the maximum of three years.
The Court decides on the sentence received by NS defaulters taking into consideration the circumstances of the individual case and the sentence MINDEF has pressed for. After their punishments by the Court, NS defaulters who are still NS-liable will have to serve NS.

NS may be unpopular but given a choice, most men still in Singapore who have already served NS would prefer to hve it in place rather than paying higher taxes to maintain a completely professional armed force. And really, the only people who matter to a political party are those who vote.

The OP is also deluded if he thinks that punishing defaulters is unpopular. I will tell you it is the exact opposite. i.e. If I've got to do it, why are you such a special flower? Saying "I don't think this is a crime" doesn't mean anything, it's like yelling at the sea or saying the sky is green.

If a populist government rather than the PAP is elected, that is more concerned about domestic politics rather than foreign diplomatic relations, expect the opposite to happen - just like how China is clamping down on absconded corrupt officials in a populist move, partially to be seen as "doing something", I wouldn't put it past a future government to attempt extradition for defaulters. Try holding down a job while fighting extradition.

[PNGMK]

I wonder what happened to this OP?

[sundaymorningstaple]

I reckon one of two things. He's still in the US or he's in Changi.