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Using Indian Appliances in Singapore

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ecureilx
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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:29 am

offshoreoildude wrote:You really are indian aren't you RATM? In Singapore the line voltage is 230VAC RMS +/- 10% at the power point. There hasn't ever been a 240VAC standard here. Get out of the topic you imbecile.


Did you mean 220 V ?? :D





Coat, hat, umbrella ..

PS: I know it is officially 230, but generally all call it 220 v ;) In any case, doesn't matter much because quite a few of the appliances nowadays are becoming 110-240v !!!

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:44 am

ecureilx wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:You really are indian aren't you RATM? In Singapore the line voltage is 230VAC RMS +/- 10% at the power point. There hasn't ever been a 240VAC standard here. Get out of the topic you imbecile.


Did you mean 220 V ?? :D





Coat, hat, umbrella ..

PS: I know it is officially 230, but generally all call it 220 v ;) In any case, doesn't matter much because quite a few of the appliances nowadays are becoming 110-240v !!!


The standard is actually 230VAC 50Hz although I'm buggered if I can find an online citation. It might not make much difference in low power domestic devices but a enough of a difference in high power devices. I've spent far too many of hours of my life in front of circuits and equations and with my head in HV gear to let a slip like that past. I'd like to ask all non engineers to stay out of this thread going forward, especially the ones responsible for wiring the factory that Prince Philip visited.
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 2:54 pm

damm you nit picking singaporeans :mad:
appliances made for 240v will work anywhere between the 220-230v range too , its the ampere rating than matters over the voltage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_elec ... by_country

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 3:11 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:damm you nit picking singaporeans :mad:
appliances made for 240v will work anywhere between the 220-230v range too , its the ampere rating than matters over the voltage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_elec ... by_country


Oh god - another EEE wannabe.

There are three primary and several secondary considerations as to whether an electrical device should or can be connected to a supply.

Voltage
Amperage
Frequency

then;
Plug/Connector standard
Lead standard (insulation resistance, wear resistance and length)

then the more esoteric stuff such as;

Power factor
Load type (sometimes PF is used)

ad infinitum. As I said before - will the none engineers please leave this thread.
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 3:40 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:damm you nit picking singaporeans :mad:
appliances made for 240v will work anywhere between the 220-230v range too , its the ampere rating than matters over the voltage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_elec ... by_country


Oh god - another EEE wannabe.

There are three primary and several secondary considerations as to whether an electrical device should or can be connected to a supply.

Voltage
Amperage
Frequency

then;
Plug/Connector standard
Lead standard (insulation resistance, wear resistance and length)

then the more esoteric stuff such as;

Power factor
Load type (sometimes PF is used)

ad infinitum. As I said before - will the none engineers please leave this thread.


I don't see where I was wrong here? care to explain ?

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 3:56 pm

I'm simply trying to say it may not be just one parameter. To give an answer without checking all parametrs is an "assumption" which IME makes an ass of you and me.
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 4:19 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:I'm simply trying to say it may not be just one parameter. To give an answer without checking all parametrs is an "assumption" which IME makes an ass of you and me.


umm yes i know that , but shed some light on how I am able to use my 240v/5A/50hz Indian iron box in Singapore where the standard is 220v/13A/50Hz without setting my hair on fire?
I thought appliance makers factor in a tolerance range so that appliances made in one country could be used in another country as long as the standards adopted between those 2 countries were quite similar?

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 7:59 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:I'm simply trying to say it may not be just one parameter. To give an answer without checking all parametrs is an "assumption" which IME makes an ass of you and me.


umm yes i know that , but shed some light on how I am able to use my 240v/5A/50hz Indian iron box in Singapore where the standard is 220v/13A/50Hz without setting my hair on fire?
I thought appliance makers factor in a tolerance range so that appliances made in one country could be used in another country as long as the standards adopted between those 2 countries were quite similar?


Ok but don't take a 100 HP heavily loaded synchronous A.C. motor from 220 to 230 VAC without expecting a loss in efficiency.

Don't take a 50Hz record player to a 60Hz country without expecting your records to play faster, (do you even know what record player is?).

Don't take equipment wired for neutral-earthed-ground into a country like Singapore and not expect your ELCB to trip.

3 quick examples that come to mind of things I've seen.

It has gotten much easier in the last few decades with switch mode PSU's, Because the first stage of a PSU is a rectifier the input frequency doesn't matter and because the second last stage is a regulator and the final stage is filtering there are much less concerns about input voltage levels and regulation respectively.
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Postby x9200 » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 8:42 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:The standard is actually 230VAC 50Hz although I'm buggered if I can find an online citation.

Let me help. It is captured in the Transmission Code:
http://www.ema.gov.sg/media/files/codes ... n_code.pdf

(b) standard distribution network voltages consist of 22kV, 6.6kV, 400V and 230V that may vary within ±6%; [..]

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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:46 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:I'm simply trying to say it may not be just one parameter. To give an answer without checking all parametrs is an "assumption" which IME makes an ass of you and me.


umm yes i know that , but shed some light on how I am able to use my 240v/5A/50hz Indian iron box in Singapore where the standard is 220v/13A/50Hz without setting my hair on fire?
I thought appliance makers factor in a tolerance range so that appliances made in one country could be used in another country as long as the standards adopted between those 2 countries were quite similar?


Ok but don't take a 100 HP heavily loaded synchronous A.C. motor from 220 to 230 VAC without expecting a loss in efficiency.

Don't take a 50Hz record player to a 60Hz country without expecting your records to play faster, (do you even know what record player is?).

Don't take equipment wired for neutral-earthed-ground into a country like Singapore and not expect your ELCB to trip.

3 quick examples that come to mind of things I've seen.

It has gotten much easier in the last few decades with switch mode PSU's, Because the first stage of a PSU is a rectifier the input frequency doesn't matter and because the second last stage is a regulator and the final stage is filtering there are much less concerns about input voltage levels and regulation respectively.



1. understood

2. i know what a record player is :tongue:

3. is there such a thing as a neutral earthed ground? :?
I always assumed the ground was separate from the line and neutral everywhere in the world

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:00 pm

rajagainstthemachine wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:
rajagainstthemachine wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:I'm simply trying to say it may not be just one parameter. To give an answer without checking all parametrs is an "assumption" which IME makes an ass of you and me.


umm yes i know that , but shed some light on how I am able to use my 240v/5A/50hz Indian iron box in Singapore where the standard is 220v/13A/50Hz without setting my hair on fire?
I thought appliance makers factor in a tolerance range so that appliances made in one country could be used in another country as long as the standards adopted between those 2 countries were quite similar?


Ok but don't take a 100 HP heavily loaded synchronous A.C. motor from 220 to 230 VAC without expecting a loss in efficiency.

Don't take a 50Hz record player to a 60Hz country without expecting your records to play faster, (do you even know what record player is?).

Don't take equipment wired for neutral-earthed-ground into a country like Singapore and not expect your ELCB to trip.

3 quick examples that come to mind of things I've seen.

It has gotten much easier in the last few decades with switch mode PSU's, Because the first stage of a PSU is a rectifier the input frequency doesn't matter and because the second last stage is a regulator and the final stage is filtering there are much less concerns about input voltage levels and regulation respectively.



1. understood

2. i know what a record player is :tongue: I bet you googled it

3. is there such a thing as a neutral earthed ground? :?
I always assumed the ground was separate from the line and neutral everywhere in the world


Some US made printers (DEC) I worked on the 80's for heavens know what reason have an inductor coupling earth and neutral inside the casing.... imagine the chaos that causes being plugged into a ring main protected with ELCB's! (The Yanks never really have discovered safety devices for electrical wiring... just check the number of house fires and electrocutions they have).
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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:10 pm

Incidentally your question about neutral and earth is a very interesting one. One that has consumed years of my life.

Essentially commonwealth countries used a MEN system - this means that the Neutral is brought back to earth potential in many parts of the grid. This reduces the overall potential differentials in the grid system (i.e. live (or the three phases) is at a high potential but neutral and earth are not.

Other countries (god help me China) don't - they use a floating earth - in some cases (particularly with bad soil conductivity) the potential differences between earth and neutral in different locations can cause serious safety and isolation issues as well as 'ground loops'. You can end up with things all over the place and potentially a human being can be standing on a earth plane that is at a very different potential to something he is holding (hence the need for double insulated appliances etc).

To add to the mess - and SMS will understand this - equipment on drill rigs, in wells and underwater have a whole different set of classifications and standards and earthing / neutral practices for these are a nightmare to coordinate.

In short - ships always should have every thing that is metal earthed. Most ships are M.E.N in my experience.

Equipment that goes under water is often a floating isolated system - there should only be parastic leakage potentials to reduce the risk of killing someone when there is the inevitable insulation fault.

Equipment going into wells may or may not be earthed, isolated or MEN.... but there is whole other issue with galvanic reactions in wells as well as standards that are meant to met. The best one is 'you must earth the pump in the well'.... well - it's in the earth!

Anyways I could write a book on it but won't.
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Postby rajagainstthemachine » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:22 pm

Interesting to note, since i'm a telecom engineer and we used to have major problems with EM interference affecting CO circuits back in the 90's due to unearthed telco components.
our CO trunks used back in the 90s and early 2k used to be the E&M trunks or ground start and loop start trunks, lack of grounding used to be particularly harsh on the ground start trunks, the only way to recover was to sometimes disable the circuit cards and reseat them. All this while an angry customer breathed down your back because his office had no telephones working for the day.
fun times....NOT!
in the end we had to tell the customer in the nicest way possible that his lack of earthing in the office was the reason for all the problems he was having and he used to blame our equipment :D

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:46 pm

Partly on this subject: have you actually ever checked what do you have in your power sockets or some different related places at home? In the first condo we lived it was 250-260V average most of the time and up to 300V occasionally. Even better surprise we had in the next one, brand new, built at the boom condo devel. time few years ago. It has the door bell wiring running 400VAC.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Wed, 23 Jan 2013 7:40 am

x9200 wrote:Partly on this subject: have you actually ever checked what do you have in your power sockets or some different related places at home? In the first condo we lived it was 250-260V average most of the time and up to 300V occasionally. Even better surprise we had in the next one, brand new, built at the boom condo devel. time few years ago. It has the door bell wiring running 400VAC.


Are you using a true RMS meter? If not divide those readings by square root of 2 for a start.
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