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harrassment

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Sergei82
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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:11 am

Do they have leverage to boot you off the condo?

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Postby nakatago » Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:18 am

Sergei82 wrote:Do they have leverage to boot you off the condo?


I've had a flatmate who was harassed by security, trying to keep her from getting in. Our stupid "condo" has only one point of entry. Like I said, depends on condo. For some condos, you can get in and out of the compound without the guards having to lay eyes on you.

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Postby Sergei82 » Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:24 am

There is no security in Singapore that can physically stop me if I keep going forward without stopping. What I meant is this: can any one of mentioned characters terminate your tenancy agreement. If no, screw them! Keep enjoying your stay in condo.
Or maybe you want to be likeable by every resident in the house? Psychology says it is not possible no matter how hard you are trying.

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Postby nakatago » Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:33 am

Sergei82 wrote:There is no security in Singapore that can physically stop me if I keep going forward without stopping. What I meant is this: can any one of mentioned characters terminate your tenancy agreement. If no, screw them! Keep enjoying your stay in condo.
Or maybe you want to be likeable by every resident in the house? Psychology says it is not possible no matter how hard you are trying.


Well, you're a muscular guy that can intimidate security guards in Singapore. I can do so as well since I have enough mad skillz to give someone a beating of their life on CCTV and still make it look like the guy was a clumsy, uncoordinated dork to inflict wounds on himself.

My flatmate is a meek girl who can be physically pushed around by a pot-bellied guard with a pornstache. Call the cops? Sure, but that would be after a kerfuffle already. And that happened on a rainy, Friday night.

So, what can a petite, country lass from some rural village in the Philippines, Indonesia or Sri Lanka do to a burly Malaysian/Singaporean who's shooting his mouth off at 9000 Singlish words per second?

They don't want to be likeable; they just want to be left alone in peace.

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Postby movingtospore » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 6:52 pm

beppi wrote:OSOD: It is not just "Sinkies" who treat helpers as sub-human creatures!
When I visited the British Club several years ago, I was told that members are no more allowed to bring their maids to the club, as those who needed them there (e.g. to take care of the kids) were outnumbered by those who were disturbed by their presence (and allegedly "enjoying" the facilities).
I, however, was allowed as guest, although non-member, presumably because I'm white.
I decided never to visit that place again.


Although the brit club can be obnoxious, this rule, I think, has more to do with lazy expat parents than the maids themselves. What they don't want is people dumping their kids at the place all day with the maid. But why they can't at least let helpers accompany kids to and from lessons is beyond me.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:13 pm

Sergei82 wrote:There is no security in Singapore that can physically stop me if I keep going forward without stopping. What I meant is this: can any one of mentioned characters terminate your tenancy agreement. If no, screw them! Keep enjoying your stay in condo.
Or maybe you want to be likeable by every resident in the house? Psychology says it is not possible no matter how hard you are trying.

The landlord can*, but if (s)he does it under wrong pretext based on MC wrong regulations all the mentioned characters will be in a really deep s**t. Of course if the tenant cares to take any action.

* the wording of most TA is very unspecific. It typically says it is enough you are in breach of ANY condo regulation or are a nuisance to the other occupants.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:39 pm

x9200 wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:ALL FINES BY MC'S ARE ILLEGAL IF NOT DEFINED / AUTHORIZED IN THE BY LAWS OF THE MC or the relevant act. NEVER PAY AN ILLEGAL FINE.

I would expect any fines by MC are illegal. Is there any general/specific law enabling MC to impose any fines? I strongly doubt so.


In general I believe a MC can add by laws via an AGM (voted in) which can include monetary penalties that the MA can apply to owners/tenants. These are 'fees' not fines but have the same effect.
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Postby offshoreoildude » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:42 pm

Sergei82 wrote:Do they have leverage to boot you off the condo?


IF you're an owner - no chance in hell.

IF you're a tenant - only with the LL agreement.

*with the exception of those who commit a illegal act (in law) that causes the SPF/URA to act and charge someone. I imagine at this point a forced sale / eviction / TA cancellation can occur on conviction of the owner/tenant.
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Postby offshoreoildude » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:44 pm

nakatago wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:Do they have leverage to boot you off the condo?


I've had a flatmate who was harassed by security, trying to keep her from getting in. Our stupid "condo" has only one point of entry. Like I said, depends on condo. For some condos, you can get in and out of the compound without the guards having to lay eyes on you.


Another type of condo to avoid! I too lived in one that had a back gate - very useful for my former housemate to smuggle transgendered hookers in by apparently (as I found out the wrong way).
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Postby x9200 » Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:37 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:
x9200 wrote:
offshoreoildude wrote:ALL FINES BY MC'S ARE ILLEGAL IF NOT DEFINED / AUTHORIZED IN THE BY LAWS OF THE MC or the relevant act. NEVER PAY AN ILLEGAL FINE.

I would expect any fines by MC are illegal. Is there any general/specific law enabling MC to impose any fines? I strongly doubt so.


In general I believe a MC can add by laws via an AGM (voted in) which can include monetary penalties that the MA can apply to owners/tenants. These are 'fees' not fines but have the same effect.

That sounds much better but even such I believe they have to be justifiable on the civil law ground so typically should have a form of a security deposit to cover potential damages or to cover some real damages (if incurred) or to be a payment for a service. Hard to believe any of these applies to this case. Probably the last one may come a bit closer (a special payment for the maids to use the common areas?) but this would be so unusual that I would expect the landlord should be obliged by the court to cover it if not explicitly mentioned in TA.

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Postby daytripper65 » Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:02 pm

Thank you all for the useful information and comments.

We met with the property manager today. We were denied a meeting with the MC on account of being mere renters. The property manager listened sympathetically to our concerns, both about being told that the (microchipped) pets will be confiscated as strays, and the treatment of the help. He said there is absolutely no rule against helpers at the pool or BBQ pit that don't apply to everyone else, such as noise or late hours. There is also no rule saying cats are not allowed to roam, which is consistent with what we were told when we moved in, as it factored into our decision to stay here. He is going to recommend that the cats, who have stayed on our own stoop for 3 years, carry on.

There seems to be one woman in particular who moved in 6 months ago, who is causing most of the trouble. She has taken it upon herself to set the standard around here, and is the one ordering the maids to stay away from the pool, complaining about the security guards (who seem quite nice to us), and of course is personally annoyed by the sight of animals.

The AVA coming out to collect the help along with the cats will probably quench her thirst for blood until the next full moon, but she has managed to get herself appointed as the vice-chair of the MC, so I suspect she's only just begun. And that we've just had a lot of smoke blown up our arse.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 14 Jan 2013 10:50 pm

daytripper65 wrote:There seems to be one woman in particular who moved in 6 months ago, who is causing most of the trouble. She has taken it upon herself to set the standard around here, and is the one ordering the maids to stay away from the pool, complaining about the security guards (who seem quite nice to us), and of course is personally annoyed by the sight of animals.

The AVA coming out to collect the help along with the cats will probably quench her thirst for blood until the next full moon, but she has managed to get herself appointed as the vice-chair of the MC, so I suspect she's only just begun. And that we've just had a lot of smoke blown up our arse.


Know thine enemy :)

VC of the MC after 6 months eh? There is a tendency for those positions to go to people with the time and inclination, rather than to those who might be best able to fulfill the role. The danger is no one has the time or interest, so things end up in the hands of 'all the little Hitlers' who want to run things their way, rather than the proper way.

On the plus side, it sounds like you have the MO on your side. You could pay her a visit and ask her what her concern is, as no rules appear to be being broken. Although in Asia such a direct/honest approach tends to be avoided at all costs.

Why not brief your maid, and tell her that if this woman approaches her/them and challenges her, then to politely outline the rules, and ask on what basis she has a complaint.

Otherwise, just keep the MO updated on any harrassment*, and keep them onside (your side!). With people like this it is (IMHO) very likely that your maid is just one of many victims. Refer Vexatious Litigant etc.

* via e-mail can be useful, in case you wish to refer to the written record in future.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:00 pm

In other words there is completely no ground for all this threatening which goes as far as to threaten you to damage / remove your property (the cats). Sounds pretty much like a criminal offense and looks like the MC needs some cold shower. I would probably go at this point to your neighborhood police station and ask for help.

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Postby Sergei82 » Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:30 pm

Are cats falling under property definition?

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 15 Jan 2013 7:49 am

Sergei82 wrote:Are cats falling under property definition?


In Singapore? Very good question. In lots of countries (Russia for one I suspect) cats are considered to be "semi wild" and cannot be considered property. However in Singapore - yes - they are property as most other commonwealth countries.
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