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Re-apply PR for spouse 2nd time

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
vishalgupta2
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Postby vishalgupta2 » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 7:17 am

ecureilx wrote:
Wd40 wrote:No I really mean it. You may be interested in reading more about popular medical tourism destinations. Here's one article I found:

http://internationalliving.com/2010/06/ ... tinations/


I am flummoxed now .. so you believe an internet article as the source of your claim that Singapore doctors are not good in handling maternity cases but are good in multi-organ failure cases ?? :? :?

never mind ...


It's only about cost. It's way cheaper to get treated in India (savings do come with a risk though).

That's the only reason anyone goes to India for treatment. If India had world class medical facilities, all the rich and famous of India won't go to US/Australia/Europe for medical treatments. The list includes Sonia Gandhi, Yuvraj Singh, Sachin Tendulkar etc. and the recent multi-organ failure case as you just pointed out.

This is exactly what the article quoted also says.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 11:27 am

zzm9980 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:The definition of Permanent Resident is "one who decides to stay IN SINGAPORE PERMANENTLY. The commonly used definition is applicable here as well. Permanent Resident never has to be renewed. It is exactly what it says.

Now, for the naysayers before they start........

Should you DESIRE TO TRAVEL ABROAD......

You need a re-entry permit. Leaving the country without a re-entry permit is tantamount to declaring to the Government that you are voluntarily giving up your Permanent Residency.

You see, if you never leave Singapore, you DO NOT NEED a Re-entry Permit and you are free to stay here as long as you desire, e.g., permanently, hence you have been given Permanent Residence.

You want to leave, you need a re-entry permit. Simple really. Even if your re-entry permit is only renewed for one year and then they don't renew it, you are still welcome to stay here as long as you want. But you cannot leave the country without it as that will be a declaration that you are voluntarily giving up your PR (yeah, they are forcing the issue, but it is you who is leaving voluntarily, so you don't have a leg to stand on.


Right, but does the gahmen ever actually post that somewhere? I know it's meant to be more than a temporary stepping stone (to anything other than SC), but the ease with which the gahmen lets PR give it up and get their CPF refund, etc, makes me think even the gahmen doesn't hold the definition as strictly as some on this forum.


If you have spend any time in the strictly speaking forum on the NS issue, you will not, it's NOT that easy to give up your PR if you have acquired it via 2nd Generation processes and you are a male. 1st Generation PR's if not going to leave any contribution to the country, I could understand the government saying okay, you want to go, go. Make room for someone who actually WANTS to be here. But as your male offspring has benefited from the facilities and education here, they must pay their dues if they want the right to come back here again.

Remember, this is still a small island with limited space. Why should they force people to remain here as PRs only to possibly be wards of the state if the economy tanks. On the reverse, there are lots of PRs here who are welcome to stay as long as they want but are not eligible for Citizenship. There are others who come from countries that allow multiple citizenships and also refuse to relinquish that right. Singapore could actually solve a lot of it's problems by allowing multiple citizenship as a lot of immigrated Singaporeans would probably return as the real world loses it's appeal to them.

I also wonder why people say it's not fully explained. It is. In fact, everything I've stated, most already know from the government, but, like the NS issues, it not written in layman's terms in a point by point outline to make it easy. They allow that PRs or potential PRs are "talented" (or used to be :-/ ) and are sufficiently well read to be able to understand that. Those that cannot understand, well, they are probably less than desirable to start with.

The CPF is YOUR money. Why should they keep it? You pay the same tax rates as citizens, if you leave permanently, they cannot keep your own money. That would be similar to keeping your bank accounts. The CPF fund is your OWN retirement funds. It is used by the government and for that right they pay a tidy interest rate as well as guarantee the funds will be there. The employer contributions are also your funds as they are part of the contract you have with your employer. Again, not the government. If you leave AND withdraw your CPF (you are not required to do so) be advised you can leave it there and it will continue to draw the same interest rates until such time as you do withdraw it. However, should you do so, you will make it harder for yourself should you with to return to Singapore later as like everything else here, there is a little codicil that requires you to replace ALL the funds and any additional interest it would have accrued if it hadn't been withdrawn. They make it easy for you, but the payback is a bit rougher. But it still your decision. I don't skirt the issue.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:10 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:The definition of Permanent Resident is
snip............

The CPF is YOUR money. Why should they keep it? You pay the same tax rates as citizens, if you leave permanently, they cannot keep your own money. That would be similar to keeping your bank accounts. The CPF fund is your OWN retirement funds. It is used by the government and for that right they pay a tidy interest rate as well as guarantee the funds will be there. The employer contributions are also your funds as they are part of the contract you have with your employer. Again, not the government. If you leave AND withdraw your CPF (you are not required to do so) be advised you can leave it there and it will continue to draw the same interest rates until such time as you do withdraw it. However, should you do so, you will make it harder for yourself should you with to return to Singapore later as like everything else here, there is a little codicil that requires you to replace ALL the funds and any additional interest it would have accrued if it hadn't been withdrawn. They make it easy for you, but the payback is a bit rougher. But it still your decision. I don't skirt the issue.


Very valid point... a lot of locals on TRE argue that 'Gahmen should keep/confiscate CPF of FT' without even understanding whose money it is.... trust me - if the Gahmen can confiscate PR CPF then they can confiscate SC CPF as well.
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Postby Wd40 » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 1:10 pm

Confiscating CPF is an extreme thing.
I think what ZZM means is: Its really easy for someone to give up PR and go back, without any losses whatsoever. For eg, my friend who left Singapore to India for good, spent only 1 extra day beyond his last day of employment. A thursday was his last day in office and on friday he was able to cancel his PR and go to the CPF office and do the formalities to arrange the withdrawal and on saturday morning he boarded his flight to India. Its that easy!

One thing that they can do is not let PRs to withdraw CPF until they turn 65. Just like how they do to Malaysians. I believe the US does the same thing to its PRs, the 401k or whatever it is can be withdrawn only when they attain retirement age.

At the moment PR here is seriously very easy thing to apply for(not easy to get though) compared to any other country, in terms of procedures or cost and also to give up in terms of procedures or cost.

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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 1:24 pm

Wd40 wrote:Confiscating CPF is an extreme thing.
I think what ZZM means is: Its really easy for someone to give up PR and go back, without any losses whatsoever. For eg, my friend who left Singapore to India for good, spent only 1 extra day beyond his last day of employment. A thursday was his last day in office and on friday he was able to cancel his PR and go to the CPF office and do the formalities to arrange the withdrawal and on saturday morning he boarded his flight to India. Its that easy!

One thing that they can do is not let PRs to withdraw CPF until they turn 65. Just like how they do to Malaysians. I believe the US does the same thing to its PRs, the 401k or whatever it is can be withdrawn only when they attain retirement age.

At the moment PR here is seriously very easy thing to apply for(not easy to get though) compared to any other country, in terms of procedures or cost and also to give up in terms of procedures or cost.


Exactly. I had a friend who's last day was also a Thursday. They picked up their CPF check Friday morning and was on a red-eye back to Europe that evening.

I know it is the former PR's money, but the gahmen could easily impose a penalty or administrative fee of some-sort. I don't know the figure that makes the most sense, but say something in the range of 30-40% of whatever interest they earned from the government. Seems fair to me honestly. Plus, I don't see why it is so easy and quick to get your money back, when I can't even get a refund on un-used auto insurance that quickly here.

Wd40, US 401ks are completely private. You can withdraw them at anytime for any reason, it's just that you have to pay income tax at a penalty rate to compensate for the tax advantages you gained by parking your money there. I'm guessing most of those someones giving up their PR with no intention of returning to the US don't pay this (or any of their last year's income tax). Just like so many students from South Asia and other places show up, take on student loans and grants, and ditch out once they have their degree.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 4:02 pm

Wd40 wrote:Confiscating CPF is an extreme thing.
I think what ZZM means is: Its really easy for someone to give up PR and go back, without any losses whatsoever. For eg, my friend who left Singapore to India for good, spent only 1 extra day beyond his last day of employment. A thursday was his last day in office and on friday he was able to cancel his PR and go to the CPF office and do the formalities to arrange the withdrawal and on saturday morning he boarded his flight to India. Its that easy!

One thing that they can do is not let PRs to withdraw CPF until they turn 65. Just like how they do to Malaysians. I believe the US does the same thing to its PRs, the 401k or whatever it is can be withdrawn only when they attain retirement age.

At the moment PR here is seriously very easy thing to apply for(not easy to get though) compared to any other country, in terms of procedures or cost and also to give up in terms of procedures or cost.


Valid argument. It also would re-inforce the idea of permanent residency. I was/am surprised that the CPF Life annuity scheme hasn't been tightened up and PR's forced to take an annuity rather than lump sum. It may yet happen.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 4:57 pm

That doesn't make good sense from my POV. Why make it hard to give up PR? Make it hard to regain it if you leave (which is what they are doing). Lot's of people want PR. Singapore can afford to be selective (and they should have been but didn't) now as the country is developed now. If one gives it up, withdraws their CPF, it's not going to be easy to regain it, if not impossible. However, they leave the method to regain it on the books as it's in their favour to do so. You want to leave, why stop you. You won't be of any help to the country if you are here against your wishes so make it easy to go, good riddance to bad rubbish as the saying goes. It's crowded here, why make people stay against their wishes by monetarily punishing them?

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Postby Wd40 » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 5:27 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:That doesn't make good sense from my POV. Why make it hard to give up PR? Make it hard to regain it if you leave (which is what they are doing). Lot's of people want PR. Singapore can afford to be selective (and they should have been but didn't) now as the country is developed now. If one gives it up, withdraws their CPF, it's not going to be easy to regain it, if not impossible. However, they leave the method to regain it on the books as it's in their favour to do so. You want to leave, why stop you. You won't be of any help to the country if you are here against your wishes so make it easy to go, good riddance to bad rubbish as the saying goes. It's crowded here, why make people stay against their wishes by monetarily punishing them?


Fair point! My argument though was that if they make it hard for people to withdraw CPF or put a monetary cost in the beginning, it would deter those who want to abuse it, from applying for PR in the first place.

But I know the answer as to why they don't do it, or haven't done it yet. If they do make it hard for people to give up or take up PR it would deter even those that are serious about it. Although other countries can afford to make it hard for people to take up PR, Singapore cannot afford to close its door completely to foreigners and the gahmen never forgets to mention this.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 7:27 pm

Spot on.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 01 Jan 2013 8:19 pm

ututu wrote:Yep, like a gold digging b..tch, you run out to to corner grocery store and find your locks changed. Before demanding commitment, she should take a hard look at herself.


If you don't like it, leave. BTW, you're the one in SG holding the shovel, right?

Know what that makes you?

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Postby vishalgupta2 » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 3:44 am

Good point here.

As for US in the US most of the times 401k is optional and is slightly more complicated than Singapore CPF.

401k is heavily used as a tax saving and investment tool in USA which is different from Singapore. There also are ways to withdraw it.

Those of us who have worked in US know that US also has a FICA tax aka social security tax. You pay social security tax in US and it as name suggests pays for your SS benefits. All the FT in US is required to pay FICA but can't get anything back unless they become citizens (which as a PITA anyway).

Wd40 wrote:Confiscating CPF is an extreme thing.
I think what ZZM means is: Its really easy for someone to give up PR and go back, without any losses whatsoever. For eg, my friend who left Singapore to India for good, spent only 1 extra day beyond his last day of employment. A thursday was his last day in office and on friday he was able to cancel his PR and go to the CPF office and do the formalities to arrange the withdrawal and on saturday morning he boarded his flight to India. Its that easy!

One thing that they can do is not let PRs to withdraw CPF until they turn 65. Just like how they do to Malaysians. I believe the US does the same thing to its PRs, the 401k or whatever it is can be withdrawn only when they attain retirement age.

At the moment PR here is seriously very easy thing to apply for(not easy to get though) compared to any other country, in terms of procedures or cost and also to give up in terms of procedures or cost.

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 9:21 am

vishalgupta2 wrote: All the FT in US is required to pay FICA but can't get anything back unless they become citizens (which as a PITA anyway).


No one under the age of 40 is going to get anything out of it anyway :lol:

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Postby ecureilx » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 9:44 am

vishalgupta2 wrote:That's the only reason anyone goes to India for treatment. If India had world class medical facilities, all the rich and famous of India won't go to US/Australia/Europe for medical treatments. The list includes Sonia Gandhi, Yuvraj Singh, Sachin Tendulkar etc. and the recent multi-organ failure case as you just pointed out.


I know a few guys who come for quarterly checkups, in Mount E or Gleneagles or Raffles .. I was wondering why, till when one of the guys was talking to another one of the 'tourist' and the conversation is like .. "Nowadays, I get my heart checked in Mount E.. " and the other one was like "oh, I get it done when I visit my son in NY .. "

and me was like "oh .. I get it now .. " :)

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Postby zzm9980 » Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:56 am

ecureilx wrote:
vishalgupta2 wrote:That's the only reason anyone goes to India for treatment. If India had world class medical facilities, all the rich and famous of India won't go to US/Australia/Europe for medical treatments. The list includes Sonia Gandhi, Yuvraj Singh, Sachin Tendulkar etc. and the recent multi-organ failure case as you just pointed out.


I know a few guys who come for quarterly checkups, in Mount E or Gleneagles or Raffles .. I was wondering why, till when one of the guys was talking to another one of the 'tourist' and the conversation is like .. "Nowadays, I get my heart checked in Mount E.. " and the other one was like "oh, I get it done when I visit my son in NY .. "

and me was like "oh .. I get it now .. " :)



It could also just be that visas may be much easier to obtain for medical reasons. Although I assure you in no way am I implying medical care in India is better than it is. Just saying.

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Postby ututu » Tue, 08 Jan 2013 11:46 am

zzm9980 wrote:Wd40, US 401ks are completely private. You can withdraw them at anytime for any reason, it's just that you have to pay income tax at a penalty rate to compensate for the tax advantages you gained by parking your money there. I'm guessing most of those someones giving up their PR with no intention of returning to the US don't pay this (or any of their last year's income tax). Just like so many students from South Asia and other places show up, take on student loans and grants, and ditch out once they have their degree.


Why would anyone leaving US withdraw IRA/401ks, if anything by 401s can always be rolled over to IRA and then converted to Roth at correct time to minimize tax hit. And given liquidity and depth of US capital markets and extreme tax benefits of Roth and/or Traditional IRAs it'd be foolish to withdraw all of it. There is lots of flexibility into what type assets Roth/Traditional can be invested to.

2nd, any withdrawal from Traditional/Rollover/401k is hit with highest marginal rate +10% from the start idea is that excess tax will be refunded once return is filed the following year, if IRA custodian allows full withdrawal they will be liable for income taxes to IRS. Suffice to say custodian will make sure not to be left holding the bag.

Singapore on other hand is pretty undeveloped as far as capital markets concerned, SGX is a toddler compared to adult sized elephants in NASDAQ or NYSE, plus lack of flexibility in CPF and so on. it is just overall a bad deal.


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