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Can an Ex-PR regain PR status?

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 12:18 pm

Ronnie breaking the law is one thing and taking advantage of loopholes is another thing. While the former is illegal the latter is unethical.

The regulars on this forum come across as suckers for being ethical when it comes to taking up PR for its original intent that is to make Singapore their permanent home.

Indians are always looking at exploiting loopholes and hence they are hated on this forum and now you have come across someone similar and hence you are getting the same medicine.

I understand you are a businessman and in business there is no place for ethics and profitability takes the top priority. Indians think the same way on a personal level. So to that extent the regulars in this board are hypocritical, in that they are ok when the MNCs from the countries that they usually come from can do all the abuse like banks help the rich to evade tax, companies in the US are now paying out big dividends to avoid the tax rise due to the fiscal cliff etc so there are several levels of abuse that happen in their own backyard yet they are after those poor economic immigrants who are trying to get a better life for themselves. It's hypocrisy at its worst.

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Postby zzm9980 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 12:43 pm

Wd40 wrote:
And zzm, being an American is worse off than being an Indian as far as PR chances are concerned, because percentage wise more of you guys have abused it than Indians :-|


I'd love to see any kind of stat or article backing this up, or even a looney biased blog post on TRE asserting this claim. But I know you won't find one, so I'll just take you at face value and say that even if it is true, the quantity is so much lower than Indian abusers that it's not in the public eye, and i doubt it would be a major negative.

OP Ronel, your reasons are exactly the reasons you won't gain PR. Singapore gives PR to people who want to be here forever and they hope to convert to Singaporeans one day, not those here for the short to mid term looking for a financial advantage or conveniences by having a PR. You'll have to go with the appropriate work/Entre-pass.

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 1:05 pm

zzm9980 wrote:
Wd40 wrote:
And zzm, being an American is worse off than being an Indian as far as PR chances are concerned, because percentage wise more of you guys have abused it than Indians :-|


I'd love to see any kind of stat or article backing this up, or even a looney biased blog post on TRE asserting this claim. But I know you won't find one, so I'll just take you at face value and say that even if it is true, the quantity is so much lower than Indian abusers that it's not in the public eye, and i doubt it would be a major negative.

OP Ronel, your reasons are exactly the reasons you won't gain PR. Singapore gives PR to people who want to be here forever and they hope to convert to Singaporeans one day, not those here for the short to mid term looking for a financial advantage or conveniences by having a PR. You'll have to go with the appropriate work/Entre-pass.



It is a known fact that Caucasians who take up PR more often than not dont take up citizenship which is the reason why it's harder now for a Caucasian to get PR than an Indian. There is enough evidence of this on this board.

And while there are lots of Indians who give up their PR and go back there are several others who have applied for citizenship or are trying hard to get citizenship. Again lots of evidence on this board.

Now just like SMS says PEP is the stepping stone for PR and those that treat it as a 5 year visa are abusers, I would say that PR is a stepping stone to citizenship and those that treat it as a way to remain here as long as they want and then give it up are abusers as well, may be to a lesser degree than those Indians who renounce PRs for children before they turn NS age, but abuse it is, nonetheless.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 1:20 pm

You don't need PR. You need a pass to do what you want. That should be possible (Entre pass etc)...
Now I'm called PNGMK

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 1:46 pm

Wd40,

Just curious. At what point would you say the PR to citizenship route is NOT always what the Government has in mind? If there is one, that is. Do you think there is one?

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 2:05 pm

Wd40 wrote:Ronnie breaking the law is one thing and taking advantage of loopholes is another thing. While the former is illegal the latter is unethical.

The regulars on this forum come across as suckers for being ethical when it comes to taking up PR for its original intent that is to make Singapore their permanent home.

Indians are always looking at exploiting loopholes and hence they are hated on this forum and now you have come across someone similar and hence you are getting the same medicine.

I understand you are a businessman and in business there is no place for ethics and profitability takes the top priority. Indians think the same way on a personal level. So to that extent the regulars in this board are hypocritical, in that they are ok when the MNCs from the countries that they usually come from can do all the abuse like banks help the rich to evade tax, companies in the US are now paying out big dividends to avoid the tax rise due to the fiscal cliff etc so there are several levels of abuse that happen in their own backyard yet they are after those poor economic immigrants who are trying to get a better life for themselves. It's hypocrisy at its worst.


Then I don't think you and I are on the same page regarding the definition of "ethical". What do you even mean by the word?

From what I understand, and this is entirely the basis of my moral compass, is that unethical actions are actions that infringe upon the Natural Law, and the reverse is true as well. By Natural Law, I mean the intrinsic and unalienable right of every man to Life, Liberty and property. These rights are generally recognized by the Constitutions of democratic nations. They (the Constitution) do not grant people these rights, they merely recognized what is already there. Now, governments create their own laws through legislation in order to govern. And as long as such laws do not infringe upon the Natural Law, they are ethical and so obeying them is ethical.

With regards to my case, as I have mentioned before, I have obeyed the law and have not broken any clause of the Natural Law or infringed upon the rights of anyone. If as you said, that my actions are unethical, can you name a victim that suffers due to my action (of seeking a PR for the second time)? The way I see it, Singapore has nothing to lose and everything to gain from the influx of capital and capitalists.

As for the original intent of the Singapore government, wasn't it their stated objective to make Singapore the financial hub of the world? And therefore they need to attract foreign capital and businessmen to base some of their operations and particularly their capital in the country? Or am I mistaken here? Wasn't that the reason behind giving out the SPR, EntrePass and a host of other permits (and the low tax system) to help ease the inflow of foreign capital and labor?

If you consider obeying the law to be unethical by your measurements, then your problem is not with me but with the lawmakers, right? In that case, you should write to your representative regarding this and seek redress to your grievances. It is they who wrote the law, not I.

P.S. We do get involved in CSR, so yes, while profit is the top priority (as by law, management is required to put the interest of their shareholders as paramount), we do not neglect our social responsibility.
Last edited by RonnieNolan on Sun, 23 Dec 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 2:25 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:You don't need PR. You need a pass to do what you want. That should be possible (Entre pass etc)...


Thank you, I've known about that. It's just that a PR status makes things more convenient. As an ex-PR, I don't believe I can work, study, etc in Singapore (is what I was told to be the penalty). This means that the legality of say, direct property ownership - even as a foreigner - is in question. And only obtaining a PR for the second time can dispel that issue once and for all.

Take for example, obtaining an Entrepass to work and buying a condo. These are two separate actions. If, as another poster mentioned above, that the law is vague and the government has a great scope to act (and therefore judge each proposal on their own merit), I might find myself in a situation where I can get one (Entrepass to work or purchase a condo) but not the other. The only way to ease this out and provide the legal certainty I need, so that I can work and buy property as and when I want, is to obtain a PR. That is to say, its the clearest way of dispelling the penalties for an ex-PR, or getting out of the "blacklist".
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby Wd40 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 2:35 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Wd40,

Just curious. At what point would you say the PR to citizenship route is NOT always what the Government has in mind? If there is one, that is. Do you think there is one?


I would say that not all PRs are "eligible" to become citizens, in the gahmen's eyes, in the same way that not all foreigners are eligible to be PRs.

Apart from that I am unable to see any special circumstance/situation which would make a PR unfavourable for citizenship conversion.

But you know there was a proposal some time back to force some 50K PRs to forcibly convert to citizens. Not sure what the progress on that one is. But that clearly shows they want PRs to become citizens, at least the good quality ones.

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 2:53 pm

RonnieNolan wrote:As for NS, as I've mentioned countless times before, it's non-negotiable for me. I cannot give up my Indonesian citizenship since it offers plenty of perks that foreign nationals can never obtain.

As for many countries having this sort of restrictions there is often a legal way to serve in a foreign army. Not possible for Indonesia?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 3:02 pm

Wd40 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:Wd40,

Just curious. At what point would you say the PR to citizenship route is NOT always what the Government has in mind? If there is one, that is. Do you think there is one?


I would say that not all PRs are "eligible" to become citizens, in the gahmen's eyes, in the same way that not all foreigners are eligible to be PRs.

Apart from that I am unable to see any special circumstance/situation which would make a PR unfavourable for citizenship conversion.

But you know there was a proposal some time back to force some 50K PRs to forcibly convert to citizens. Not sure what the progress on that one is. But that clearly shows they want PRs to become citizens, at least the good quality ones.


That proposal is still being bandied about and I have a feeling that it's going to come to fruition. The key here was the comment from the minister involved that long term PR's like myself who are sitting around the 20 year mark are/will be exempted from the pogrom. The reason? Most of the real "long-term" PR's, myself included, have gotten our PR via the Family Ties Scheme and have Singaporean wives, children, and multi-level families here. Here they could run into trouble with citizens with PR spouses. I, for one, would never give up my citizenship as it's my birthright. However, if Singapore, like my country, allowed or "accepted" the fact of dual citizenship, I would take up Singapore citizenship in a flash, even though I'm already old enough to retire. But I doubt very seriously that they would give me citizenship at this point even though I'll be allowed to stay as a PR as long as I want. But most of these types are under the Family Ties scheme and not the PTS scheme. These are the ones who will be put to the test as they are the ones who are potentially abusing the system.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 3:14 pm

x9200 wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:As for NS, as I've mentioned countless times before, it's non-negotiable for me. I cannot give up my Indonesian citizenship since it offers plenty of perks that foreign nationals can never obtain.

As for many countries having this sort of restrictions there is often a legal way to serve in a foreign army. Not possible for Indonesia?



I am the living proof; X 9200 that you can serve foreign army.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby RonnieNolan » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 3:57 pm

x9200 wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:As for NS, as I've mentioned countless times before, it's non-negotiable for me. I cannot give up my Indonesian citizenship since it offers plenty of perks that foreign nationals can never obtain.

As for many countries having this sort of restrictions there is often a legal way to serve in a foreign army. Not possible for Indonesia?


Nope, the citizenship law is very clear on that. That was why the Indonesian ambassador to Singapore have requested a leeway for Indonesian SPR holders before. That doesn't mean its impossible since there is a difference between the existence of a law and its enforcement. Just that I cannot rule out the possibility that in the future, some observant bureaucrat might dig up this record and land a legal case on my table - which at worst will result in my losing of the Indonesian citizenship. Even if that is avoidable, it will have shot to pieces any chance I have of running for public office in the future. And I certainly don't wish to close down such an important door since I still have a long way ahead of me.

Plus, since I'm already running a business and Indonesia is experiencing an unprecedented economic boom, it will be shortsightedness to prefer spending 2 years in indentured servitude as opposed to riding the boom, which will have a greater and longer-lasting effect on my future. Business is just too lucrative to leave right now, although I've only been in business for a while, I'm already looking at expanding into the chain restaurant business and opening up a factory.

Singapore is a nice place because it can help to reduce tax exposure of such business activities. Doesn't mean I want to be a Singaporean, its just that it is always preferable to be able to reap the greatest benefits of both worlds. Refer to my earlier post on how a PR is convenient for an ex-PR, it provides legal certainty.

I've met with many Singaporean businessmen doing business in Indonesia. From what I can gather from them is that, unless you're on the level of GIC or Temasek Holdings, foreign businessmen like them find Indonesia a pretty difficult place to do business and much of this has to do with the treatment they receive from the bureaucracy. Indonesian law and to some extent its bureaucrats are discriminatory towards foreign capital (and capitalists), just look at the moves in the House of Representatives regarding series of new regulation to lock foreign capital and businessmen out from various sectors and you'll understand what I mean.

As an Indonesian businessman, on the other hand, I've been able to enjoy doing business with little hassle and have received friendly treatment from bureaucrats, particularly those that help me to process various permits and documents. Of course, that's probably due to the benefit they gained from a quid pro quo status that we have. While I don't like these bureaucrats personally, it is a fact that we have an understanding. Additionally, I and my company can own freehold titles, which is impossible for a foreign businessman or business no matter how long he has been here. Indonesia, thus discriminates between nationals and non-nationals. This is not the case with Singapore.

I hope you understand the implication of such a situation in my decision-making process. I want the best that I can get. I mean who wouldn't, right? I'm sure that most of the 18,000 Indonesian millionaires in Singapore is there because it helps to facilitate their business and helps to put more money in their pocket.
Those who tell you money can't buy everything don't know where to shop. - Abraham Lincoln

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Postby x9200 » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 4:50 pm

RonnieNolan wrote:
x9200 wrote:
RonnieNolan wrote:As for NS, as I've mentioned countless times before, it's non-negotiable for me. I cannot give up my Indonesian citizenship since it offers plenty of perks that foreign nationals can never obtain.

As for many countries having this sort of restrictions there is often a legal way to serve in a foreign army. Not possible for Indonesia?


Nope, the citizenship law is very clear on that.

Interesting, as far as I can see this very citizenship law also says what to do to stay legal. It took me 5 min to google out the relevant law (Article 3, Regulations 12/2006) and this is probably not the only way. Knowing a bit MS from this board I don't expect him doing anything illegal.

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Postby taxico » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 5:11 pm

i had so much that is caustic to say, but my opinion is that, a seemingly well read and (i assume) educated "young indonesian businessman" should be able to figure out how indonesians can serve NS in singapore without running foul of any laws, or at the very least, figure out the possibility of re-gaining PR.

FWIW, someone said an 8 figure investment amount might do the trick. i think that figure, if it is truly 8 figures, would best not start with 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 23 Dec 2012 6:15 pm

taxico wrote:i had so much that is caustic to say, but my opinion is that, a seemingly well read and (i assume) educated "young indonesian businessman" should be able to figure out how indonesians can serve NS in singapore without running foul of any laws, or at the very least, figure out the possibility of re-gaining PR.

FWIW, someone said an 8 figure investment amount might do the trick. i think that figure, if it is truly 8 figures, would best not start with 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.


Aye to that !!
He seems to be very intelligent and I believe, overseas educated and coming from Bekasi i.e Gandaria possibily ; parents are well to do and well groom in the memememmemememe syndrome
It is very nauseating and almost vomiting from the way he sees things

X: For a start , I serve the Singapore army as a Singaporean not as PR. Big difference and yes I hold my Indonesian PP too !!
No, I did not run foul with the law as I serve this motherland a good half of my life.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!


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