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A moral maze: you be the judge

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In your opinion would keeping the ring but not getting married be justified if:

A) She changed her mind about going ahead
1
7%
B) He cheated on her
4
27%
C) She cheated on him
0
No votes
D) Never
5
33%
E) Other (please elaborate)
5
33%
 
Total votes: 15

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x9200
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Postby x9200 » Sun, 09 Dec 2012 7:26 am

JR8 wrote:
Cath C wrote:Hmmm... interesting. On one hand, it's a gift and gifts should be given in the spirit of unconditionality. On the other, it is a symbol of a conditional arrangement....

Exactly [sitting here nodding slowly], that is why it is not so straight-forward.

It's a very special gift and IMO it should never be analyzed with a cold logic (like above). If they got married and later got divorced nobody would question her "rights" to keep the engagement rings. If what she did was morally questionable also for her, here is the answer. Sure this should be if she was brought up in the "Western" circle.
How is it in the local cultures? Are there any engagement rings/gifts?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 09 Dec 2012 10:58 am

The simple test is just to vote your own thoughts, just like everybody else. If you can see the results then, then the problem is solved or at least you will know the answer just like the rest of us. :wink:

I can't see it because I can't vote. Me? I'd be a poor one to vote as my take is likely to be biased, having been married three times and divorced twice! :o

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Postby Cath C » Sun, 09 Dec 2012 12:01 pm

JR8 wrote:
Cath C wrote:My hunch is she got cold feet (perhaps literally, it's been sub-zero all week) and is not mature enough* to make the transition from SPG with the $'d-up ang moh boyfriend, to Euro-housewife.

* Example#2, already posting photos of her 'new SGn boyfriend' on Facebook, where remaining Friends of her ex are sure to see them :roll:

[/color]


If that's true, it sounds like they had fundamentally different understandings about the seriousness of the relationship. She doesn't seem self aware enough to really even understand that. In an ideal world, she wouldn't accept the ring in the first place, knowing that her feelings didn't match the gravity of the commitment it symbolised. But I'm guessing she didn't really think it through that far.

I wonder if it's even occurred to her to give the ring back. I wonder if he has asked for it back?

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 09 Dec 2012 8:59 pm

x9200 wrote: It's a very special gift and IMO it should never be analyzed with a cold logic (like above). If they got married and later got divorced nobody would question her "rights" to keep the engagement rings. If what she did was morally questionable also for her, here is the answer. Sure this should be if she was brought up in the "Western" circle.
How is it in the local cultures? Are there any engagement rings/gifts?


But that sounds rather akin to someone saying marriage is special, and hence should never end in the ‘gutter’ of the divorce court. But the fact is that the legal position of the engagement ring does sometimes become a dispute, if the marriage does not come about. In fact in some respects it would be a blessing if divorces did use ‘cold logic’, as they can to easily become personal, and a ‘fight to the death’ (is this a western version of kiasu and ‘must win at all costs’? ). Yes there are engagement rings in her (intentionally vague) particular SGn culture.

SMS: What you say is correct, I’ve now voted, and you can’t view the results of your own poll unless you vote yourself. Seems odd to me, but there you go!

CathC wrote: If that's true, it sounds like they had fundamentally different understandings about the seriousness of the relationship. She doesn't seem self aware enough to really even understand that. In an ideal world, she wouldn't accept the ring in the first place, knowing that her feelings didn't match the gravity of the commitment it symbolised. But I'm guessing she didn't really think it through that far.
I wonder if it's even occurred to her to give the ring back. I wonder if he has asked for it back?


Therein lies the rub. My own impression of her, and feeling about this, is that she is probably not a particularly intelligent person (I’m not being bitchy, this is as reflected by the extent of her education, the one job that she did have for a while, and the fact that she had breast implants (for cosmetic reasons) in her early 20s). She is however quite striking, in a sort of Asian Victoria Beckham kind of way. I suspect she was seduced by his lifestyle, and he fell for her exoticism (aka ‘Yellow Fever’). I agree with a comment above, that he probably is better off in the long-term without her.

I’m not aware of him asking for the ring back, or whether she considered it. What I am hearing though is how her family/relatives consider her behaviour, and she really does not come out of it well.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 10 Dec 2012 9:06 am

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote: It's a very special gift and IMO it should never be analyzed with a cold logic (like above). If they got married and later got divorced nobody would question her "rights" to keep the engagement rings. If what she did was morally questionable also for her, here is the answer. Sure this should be if she was brought up in the "Western" circle.
How is it in the local cultures? Are there any engagement rings/gifts?


But that sounds rather akin to someone saying marriage is special, and hence should never end in the ‘gutter’ of the divorce court. But the fact is that the legal position of the engagement ring does sometimes become a dispute, if the marriage does not come about. In fact in some respects it would be a blessing if divorces did use ‘cold logic’, as they can to easily become personal, and a ‘fight to the death’ (is this a western version of kiasu and ‘must win at all costs’? ). Yes there are engagement rings in her (intentionally vague) particular SGn culture.


Yeah, but you said "moral" so for me it means more "cultural" than legal or logical. The marriage point was to illustrate how impactful to the perception of the whole keeping/returning the ring problem is what would happen later making it not just an ordinary gift. Strict logic will lead us here nowhere. Going to the extreme you may consider charging her for occupancy of his flat, or food or utilities. These are too sort of gifts she enjoyed.

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Postby carteki » Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:34 am

offshoreoildude wrote:This situation is actually covered in some countries by contract or tort law. In Australia I believe the woman can legally keep the ring; it's essentially a deposit for her wifely whoring duties that she retains if the contract is cancelled. All women are, essentially, worthless.


So what happens if the wife is the one who breaks the contract?

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Postby carteki » Wed, 12 Dec 2012 11:41 am

Traditionally, the wife keeps the engagement ring. But in the case of a very short union -- like say 72 measly days -- the bride returns the engagement ring to her groom because it was purchased with his money. But Daniel Post Senning, the great-great grandson of etiquette expert Emily Post has told reporters: “It’d be the classy thing to return it, but she wouldn’t be out of form not (giving it back).


Reminded me of the Kim Kardashian ring story - hence the quote. Apparently it is still in the news with articles as late as 30 Nov coming up in the search. Good for Kris though - his prenup included a clause saying that she could "buy" the ring off him if they divorced!


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