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Credit Card signature checks - TANGS the enforcers from hell

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kookaburrah
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Credit Card signature checks - TANGS the enforcers from hell

Post by kookaburrah » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 5:09 pm

When I was living back in Europe, it was a fairly normal practice to write down "please request ID" on the signature strip of your credit card. It provides, I would think, a great security layer - not only can the store clerk check your ID's name and photo, but you're not conveniently providing a signature on the strip that a more enterprising person might try to copy.

I have been living here for 4 years. Ever since I arrived, I have had this on my credit cards, and never had any problems. Until, of course, I tried paying for something at Tangs.

On seeing the back of my credit card, the cashier asked me to sign the strip. I told her that I wouldn't - she was however welcome to check my IDs - including a European driver's license, which contains my name, my scanned signature and my photo for extra credit. She refused, stating that for security reasons, she needed the signature on the card. I tried to make her see that asking a person to sign a card on the spot does nothing to improve security - if the card isn't mine, I would actually be able to scribble something I could then duplicate on the receipt. This went completely over her head. I asked to speak to a manager, and we had a similar discussion. I left empty-handed and very annoyed.

On a side note, it may be interesting to some that in four years and a bit, despite the fact that "PLEASE REQUEST ID" is written clearly in capital letters, I have been asked for my ID exactly twice so far...

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JR8
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Post by JR8 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 6:33 pm

It seems a strange thing to do. You're breaking the card issuers T&Cs, you're inviting the retailer to do the same, and all along you're leaving the card open to being stolen and used by someone else (I hear you can buy a decent fake id in Bangkok for $10).

So that left me wondering why you would do it. Google yielded a surprising number of hits, none of which seem to advocate it.
Example: http://www.punny.org/money/why-writing- ... ou-can-do/

What do you think?

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Post by kookaburrah » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 6:41 pm

JR8 wrote: What do you think?
Thanks for the info, JR

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Post by taxico » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 9:24 pm

my wife's has only one credit card and she uses it very regularly. her signature usually wears out well before the card gets reissued.

one day at ikea alexandra, she tried to pay for her purchase with the card - the signature was totally not visible by this time.

she was told to (re-)sign on her card or the cashier wouldn't process the payment. end of story.

an argument ensued but my wife gave in eventually as her friend told her that particular elderly female cashier is well known for being slow and difficult.

in response to the faded signature excuse? the cashier handed her a sharpie and told her it would now not come off so easily.

the best part? no ID was sighted.

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Post by x9200 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 10:08 pm

It is IMHO the same level of paranoia to expect somebody would be copying your signature as for the shop assistants refusing to accept an unsigned one. Unfortunately, the later, as JR8 already mentioned, violates the CC's T&C.
And it is the same level because I don't really believe the signature gets ever verified in any reliable way.

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Post by Callput » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:09 pm

lol, how much more paranoid can you get? I would like to know more about you kookaburah, tell me what else do you do, to say secure your house,your email, your bank account? Do you use online banking at all?

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Post by vishalgupta2 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:37 pm

x9200 wrote:It is IMHO the same level of paranoia to expect somebody would be copying your signature as for the shop assistants refusing to accept an unsigned one. Unfortunately, the later, as JR8 already mentioned, violates the CC's T&C.
And it is the same level because I don't really believe the signature gets ever verified in any reliable way.
I have Check ID written on all my cards. I was actually advised this by some stores in the US (before I moved to Singapore). I am not sure if it violates card T&C, I will check my agreements over the weekend and update my findings.

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Post by JR8 » Fri, 30 Nov 2012 11:43 pm

vishalgupta2 wrote: I have Check ID written on all my cards. I was actually advised this by some stores in the US (before I moved to Singapore).
And do you take it upon yourself to instruct shop assistants how to do other aspects of their job, or just this one?

:???:

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Post by Callput » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 12:32 am

vishalgupta2 wrote:
x9200 wrote:It is IMHO the same level of paranoia to expect somebody would be copying your signature as for the shop assistants refusing to accept an unsigned one. Unfortunately, the later, as JR8 already mentioned, violates the CC's T&C.
And it is the same level because I don't really believe the signature gets ever verified in any reliable way.
I have Check ID written on all my cards. I was actually advised this by some stores in the US (before I moved to Singapore). I am not sure if it violates card T&C, I will check my agreements over the weekend and update my findings.
lol, you have so much time on your hands, to check your terms and conditions? Why even need so much cards if you are so paranoid? One card that you feel gets you enough points will do, man.

Life is a lot more simple than you guys make it to be. :)

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Post by vishalgupta2 » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 12:46 am

Callput wrote:
lol, you have so much time on your hands, to check your terms and conditions? Why even need so much cards if you are so paranoid? One card that you feel gets you enough points will do, man.

Life is a lot more simple than you guys make it to be. :)
I have a few cards still from US, which I decided to just keep (mostly for all the stuff I buy in USA, and for great rewards and to keep my history in US alive). As for Singapore cards, I only have a citicard.

For T&C, I have them electronic, so I will just have to do a quick search.

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Post by zzm9980 » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 9:10 am

This isn't for your protection at all, it is for the stores. (You really think they give a shit about you?)

Note that the box says "Authorized Signature". This is what the store is supposed to check to make sure the signature on the receipt matches that of the authorized individual. Not anything else. Is this mostly security theatre and are there a lot of loopholes in this approach for fraudsters to exploit? Of course, but it shifts the liability from the merchant to the fraudster or the bank.

Also, as pointed out on JR8's link, an unsigned card is technically invalid. Your signature is showing that YOU the cardholder agree to all of the terms and conditions of using the card. Amongst other things, paying the bill.

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Post by offshoreoildude » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 9:19 am

Signatures are so out dated. In Oz now you can use a PIN or Sign.... and because I really,really can't be bothered with banks crap (I have three of those new dongles for ID sitting in a desk drawer - all un-activated) - I never bothered to sign up for a PIN..... and now the cashiers are all suddenly experts in spotting fake signatures it seeems....
Now I'm called PNGMK

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Post by nakatago » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:09 am

zzm9980 wrote:This isn't for your protection at all, it is for the stores. (You really think they give a shit about you?)

Note that the box says "Authorized Signature". This is what the store is supposed to check to make sure the signature on the receipt matches that of the authorized individual. Not anything else. Is this mostly security theatre and are there a lot of loopholes in this approach for fraudsters to exploit? Of course, but it shifts the liability from the merchant to the fraudster or the bank.

Also, as pointed out on JR8's link, an unsigned card is technically invalid. Your signature is showing that YOU the cardholder agree to all of the terms and conditions of using the card. Amongst other things, paying the bill.
But they rarely bother even looking at signatures here in Singapore. And I'm not talking about "no signature needed for purchases below XX" in the supermarkets. Restaurants, electronics stores, department stores, boutiques.....
"A quokka is what would happen if there was an anime about kangaroos."

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Post by x9200 » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 10:26 am

And if you want to check how far it goes just sign it with some random signature and check whether it gets rejected by someone somewhere in the process. How a person in the shop/restaurant suppose to verify whether the signature is valid in the first place? This is a part of the same show: lets say this is for extra safety and make them more cautious and worried about the whole thing (no doubt for a good reason).

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Post by zzm9980 » Sat, 01 Dec 2012 4:02 pm

x9200 wrote:This is a part of the same show: lets say this is for extra safety and make them more cautious and worried about the whole thing (no doubt for a good reason).
The term for that is "Security Theatre", popularized by the TSA in the US and all other similar regimes that followed suit after 9/11.

Again, it's not to stop typical fraud. Think of it as a way of stopping what is referred to in the industry as "Friendly Fraud". This would be a legitimate card holder disputing a purchase and pulling out such an excuse as "I didn't agree to the sale as I never signed the card indicating my agreement." Silly? Yes, but in some places it is a valid argument. If they can prove your card is signed (say, by showing on tape you signed it there, agreeing to the T&Cs), it helps the store.

I know someone who had a jacuzzi installed in his house. He put the whole thing on his Amex, many thousands of dollars. The delivery was two days without them telling him, so he disputed the transaction because they wasted two days of his life. He told Amex he just wanted the delivery fee dropped. Well, the merchant couldn't produce the original receipt with his signature so they entire thing was charged back in his favor. Now that is Amex and they have a thing for shafting their merchants in the consumer's favor, but sillier shit happens with credit card transactions.

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