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Citizenship Situation for Kid/Family

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Citizenship Situation for Kid/Family

Postby tsy19 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:28 am

Hi.. I have been reading a bit on the forum and I still cant find a thread which would answer my question in full. so i am posing a question for any enlightened seniors in here to answer it for me.

I am local born and bred blue collar worker with a foreign pr wife. I have no NS reservist cycles due to fact that my unit is deactivated already. therefore I am not in MINDEF reserve but I get no call ups per year. I work in the western side of singapore where all the heavy industries are located

My intention is eventually transit to my wife hometown when I'm older and retire down there. Although it will only occur only about 30 years later, I preparing now to so as not to encounter into snags later. I know that laws might change in time to come. but im trying to prepare as while i can.

My wife is due to deliver in July next year and she will be delivering in overseas due to fact that is covered under her national health providers and i want the kid to avoid the ns liablity in future if its a boy.

As she will be delivering in hongkong where they have only the perm residence as status , can i apply for citizenship for the kid , if the kid turns out to be a gal? and allow her to keep her hongkong permanent residence id and passport, without having to opt in between the 2 at age 21?

I heard that application for citizenship can be made before the age of 1 and can be rescinded if the kid is below 12? the reason why for this as right now i am working in singapore and i would to be eligble for child care leave and the inital child care bonus. Its the leave that i hope to get so as to get more time to be at home taking care of the kid. The bonus for me is a bonus , good to get, but not necessary to have. Is there any implications for this?

I am in the midst of applying for work visa cum PR status to oz due to the fact that they pay blue collar workers well in that region, but they do also have colossal taxes and problems too that we don t face here. But if this goes through , my intention is to have my kid take up PR status here and eventually if possible the citizenship.

With the oz citizenship in mind, the gradual withdrawal would be in mind for me to exit properly. I would like to transfer my HDB flat to my spouse who is still holding the PR status. But as my wife status is PR sponsored by me and her REP is valid for 5 years only , there is a question i might ask
If i am no longer a citizen , i am not sure my wife could renew on basis of her own . She does not have CPF contributions as she works overseas and basically i got the pr as i wanted to buy the hdb flat first. We both shuttle around a lot. this will change after the birth of my kid and she will relocate here after the kid is stable.

But i heard that PR REP status can be renewed after 50 without any problems as per current laws. meaning which my wife can independently renew on her own and without my sponsorship. Is there any views on this?

I checked that HDB flat can be transferred to kin without cash involved , my intention is to eventually transfer it to her when i give up my citizenship. but the flat is under hdb loan and i dont think it will be completed when i transfer to her. so can i transfer the hdb loan to her or i have to take a private bank loan for the remainder?

I also checked a while back that 2 owners are required for the ownership of an HDB executive flat or Mansionette. although i dont own one at moment , i would just like to know if i happen to own one at then , could i just transfer ownership or i have to sell the flat?

I was born here and bred here along with most of friends who are stuck here and unable to leave. I have my reasons for wanting to leave the small dot here. The only thing that i find a pity is i am leaving all my frens and relatives. I still want to maintain a small bridge in future and hence that is why i am preparing all this in advance

Hope those who are reading can help to provide solution or reference where i can use in future...

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:18 am

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Re: Citizenship Situation for Kid/Family

Postby taxico » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:24 pm

tsy19 wrote:...I was born here and bred here along with most of friends who are stuck here and unable to leave. I have my reasons for wanting to leave the small dot here. The only thing that i find a pity is i am leaving all my frens and relatives. I still want to maintain a small bridge in future and hence that is why i am preparing all this in advance

Hope those who are reading can help to provide solution or reference where i can use in future...


let me understand this:

you are a singaporean with a SPR wife. you have lots of reasons why you want to leave singapore, so you're planning ahead.

you want to retire in future to your wife's country. in the mean time, you are trying to find work in Australia for your own reasons.

you want your wife to deliver your child in HK to avoid obtaining SC'ship if it's a boy and because it's cheaper.

if it's a girl, it doesn't matter if she's an SC but you hope that singapore will allow her to keep 2 citizenships after she turns 21 (and yes, she can obtain SC even if she is born overseas as her father is a SC).

at the same time, you want to be eligible (where possible) for the goodies that the singapore government dishes out to singaporeans/PRs that bear SC kids.

and if you find work in Australia, and if that works out in the long term, you want your child to become a PR (t)here and eventually an AU citizen.

further, you own with your wife, an HDB flat (which has not been fully paid up) that you want to eventually transfer entirely to your SPR wife when you are no longer a SC.

Q1. you're not sure if you can do the transfer, when you are no longer a SC, for you to (effectively) retain ownership of the flat, which was obtained by you sponsoring your foreign spouse SPR'cy.

Q2 you ask if whether or not your wife can renew her "sponsored" SPR independently, and if she can have indefinite SPR renewals in future after 50 yo, despite you not being singaporean and your kids not living in singapore and/or (possibly) not singapore citizens.

Q3 you wonder what the (HDB-disbursed) loan situation would be like if your spouse takes full ownership of your flat.

with all of the above, you still have aspirations of upgrading from your current flat to (possibly) an HDB executive flat or EM, with repeated queries about Q1, Q2 and Q3 for the same situation.

wow. you weren't kidding when you said you're "local born!"

i don't have additional answers for you that a call/email to HDB or ICA wouldn't yield. i also applaud your desires to plan in advance.

keeping two citizenships beyond the age of 21 is illegal in singapore although it can and has been done by others. how you're gonna brain wash your kid to break the law, i'm not sure.

just know that they'll be the ones liable for any criminal action that is the result of your current plan.

seeing that your wife is an SPR, i have a feeling that your son would have NS liabilities whether a SC or SPR.

whether your unit is deactivated or not is of no consequence. you'd still have to apply for an exit permit when you're out of the country for long periods of time (for any reason) as you're still liable for reservist.

i'd say this much - you have no idea what a sheltered life you've lead thus far in this nanny state. you're gonna wake up when you move overseas, and i hope it is to a positive reality.

btw, i think it would help the other members if you could include what job/qualifications your wife has, and where she's from, and maybe her age group.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:52 pm

I think the OP needs to either break with Singapore completely (migrate) or accept he is tied to Singapore. The way in between is not easy and very subject to changing regulations.
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Postby v4jr4 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 2:30 pm

By "injecting" the kid with dual citizenship, I wonder where will OP finally decide which land he wants to step on. It may be seem as "abusing" the system. Plus, if the kid turns out to be a boy, avoiding NC will give ICA a bad impression when he comes to Singapore later on.
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Postby offshoreoildude » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 8:33 pm

v4jr4 wrote:By "injecting" the kid with dual citizenship, I wonder where will OP finally decide which land he wants to step on. It may be seem as "abusing" the system. Plus, if the kid turns out to be a boy, avoiding NC will give ICA a bad impression when he comes to Singapore later on.


OP doesn't give a shit about the kids... his post reads like 'gimme gimme gimme' letter. Ask not what Singapore can do for you; but what the PAP can give you!
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Re: Citizenship Situation for Kid/Family

Postby tsy19 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:38 pm

taxico wrote:
tsy19 wrote:...I was born here and bred here along with most of friends who are stuck here and unable to leave. I have my reasons for wanting to leave the small dot here. The only thing that i find a pity is i am leaving all my frens and relatives. I still want to maintain a small bridge in future and hence that is why i am preparing all this in advance

Hope those who are reading can help to provide solution or reference where i can use in future...


let me understand this:

you are a singaporean with a SPR wife. you have lots of reasons why you want to leave singapore, so you're planning ahead.

you want to retire in future to your wife's country. in the mean time, you are trying to find work in Australia for your own reasons.

you want your wife to deliver your child in HK to avoid obtaining SC'ship if it's a boy and because it's cheaper.

if it's a girl, it doesn't matter if she's an SC but you hope that singapore will allow her to keep 2 citizenships after she turns 21 (and yes, she can obtain SC even if she is born overseas as her father is a SC).

at the same time, you want to be eligible (where possible) for the goodies that the singapore government dishes out to singaporeans/PRs that bear SC kids.

and if you find work in Australia, and if that works out in the long term, you want your child to become a PR (t)here and eventually an AU citizen.

further, you own with your wife, an HDB flat (which has not been fully paid up) that you want to eventually transfer entirely to your SPR wife when you are no longer a SC.

Q1. you're not sure if you can do the transfer, when you are no longer a SC, for you to (effectively) retain ownership of the flat, which was obtained by you sponsoring your foreign spouse SPR'cy.

Q2 you ask if whether or not your wife can renew her "sponsored" SPR independently, and if she can have indefinite SPR renewals in future after 50 yo, despite you not being singaporean and your kids not living in singapore and/or (possibly) not singapore citizens.

Q3 you wonder what the (HDB-disbursed) loan situation would be like if your spouse takes full ownership of your flat.

with all of the above, you still have aspirations of upgrading from your current flat to (possibly) an HDB executive flat or EM, with repeated queries about Q1, Q2 and Q3 for the same situation.

wow. you weren't kidding when you said you're "local born!"

i don't have additional answers for you that a call/email to HDB or ICA wouldn't yield. i also applaud your desires to plan in advance.

keeping two citizenships beyond the age of 21 is illegal in singapore although it can and has been done by others. how you're gonna brain wash your kid to break the law, i'm not sure.

just know that they'll be the ones liable for any criminal action that is the result of your current plan.

seeing that your wife is an SPR, i have a feeling that your son would have NS liabilities whether a SC or SPR.

whether your unit is deactivated or not is of no consequence. you'd still have to apply for an exit permit when you're out of the country for long periods of time (for any reason) as you're still liable for reservist.

i'd say this much - you have no idea what a sheltered life you've lead thus far in this nanny state. you're gonna wake up when you move overseas, and i hope it is to a positive reality.

btw, i think it would help the other members if you could include what job/qualifications your wife has, and where she's from, and maybe her age group.


Hi... thanks for the reply

anyway i add in some details that you requested here

she is admin exec for a hotel with a arts degree and she is in her early 30s

regarding on the hdb flat , actually i would like to keep the current one and transfer it to my spouse , doesn really matter if i do have to upgrade or not.. cos i just want to keep a place to stay whenever im back and also allow my parents to stay .. they are old now and i hope to give them a place to settle down till the day they rest. Due to some financial problems they had earlier , they sold the old home and moved in with me and hence i would like to keep the flat for that purpose. Thats why i asked the question 1 2 3 in relation..

the question of em and ea actually is question i have in myself , I am rather curious though if i were in that situation later and would there be technical difficulties if i should transfer it if i do own one. I do harbour thoughts of owning one to cater for my extended family in maybe next time i admit .. but i am still not sure if i can afford them in the short term future. prices are pretty crazy rite now and i don want to be stuck in a big loan that i cant afford.

U are probably rite, I can email up HDB and ask them more on the technical details of my query..

For my kid who is due, the reason is that i dont want him to go through of we all did. serving a nation for the 2.5 years( currently 2 years now) which he could be better off , taking his deg or gaining work exp. Some elders over here preached that being in NS is a good mental training for kid which i dont deny, but the day they regain their ic , they are back into a unforgiving world which they have to enter all over again. Not to mention the reservist cycles and rt schedules they would have to meet in the subsequent life. Its crazy having to fight the corporate ladder, but its is disheartening to c many of my peers stuck in this limbo where they have to juggle all this.

The worse thing i feel, For NS are we defending our fellow singaporeans in times of need... or are we defending the 3 million PRs and work permits holders and give them enough time for them to jump boat back.. Singapore now, there is little to differentiate between them and us. Or at best, are we expendable conscript work force for them for our 2.5 years of forced indenture . if i would to put it this way where economical terms is at stake. if this is so, I would rather pay them the allowance and ask them not to waste my time here.

As my wife is hk in origin, she have permanent residency status over there. but she is technically not a citizen of hk.. a resident of hk would be appropriate. I did check with officers in ICA front desk whether can she retain her hk residency status if she does get citizen. they said ok.. but im not sure if they know the rules well or have the rules changed. I will check with ICA later in a query email.

anyway since our kid is going to be born in hk, i would hope to let him have residency status in hk and focus more on the life elsewhere. Im not trying break the law for my kid to have dual citizen, but i would want to let him have another option. I agree that i wanted to apply citizen for my kid if shes a gal so as to enjoy childcare leave is a rather motivated reason and not for the national status.

The EP requirement i am aware of it tks :D

Life in Australia now also have challenges and difficulties , i would admit. the problems facing there now is mainly property bubble and how we are going to integrate over there. I agree with your statement that we live a sheltered life here and probably would face difficulties over there. I have friends over there and i did went over there a couple of times to c for myself , to understand the reality of life there and check out whether its suitable for me or not before i made the commitment to approach this route. But its a place where i hope like wat u said, turns out to be postive realty. Its a mind changer over there and I hope to be able to cope it over there.

if i am successful in the australia route, probably then i can work out the final exit and gradual transit to hk while having my oz passport. But it wont be so soon.. like i said.. 20 or 30 years down the road.. Most of my friends are planning to own a JB house and retire over there... But I am just taking the boundary a bit further.

Singapore hold certain memories that i view fond, but I can always come back and stay for a while to meet up with friends and relatives.. but seriously to retire here, Probably to the day i die , i cant afford to do so and thats they are pushing... work till u die.


As a matter of fact, I am born here in KKH .... its just that i hang around with a lot friends who are foreign born . In the past ( 1980 s ) , it was more defined between a pr and local and i greatly value tat... but it seems tat nowadays the line has been blurred....

It has been quite a while i been posing queries on forums, I do enjoy correspondence and from this we gain knowledge.... I hope this could ease my learning curve. whether in matters of personal interest or others

Enjoyed talking to u and hearing replies from forum users... :wink:

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Postby tsy19 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:43 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:I think the OP needs to either break with Singapore completely (migrate) or accept he is tied to Singapore. The way in between is not easy and very subject to changing regulations.


Hi thanks for the reply


Yeah its good to draw the clear line of dropping the anchor and break or accept the fact that we cant run..

But its always easier to look for loopholes and live in within 2 systems

Fallacies of men, want the best of both worlds... I admit i am flawed...

But eventually i would have to make the choice.. I m clear now on mine.. but i hope to give myself more time to make sure if i had the rite choice suitable for me. :D

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Postby tsy19 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:56 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:
v4jr4 wrote:By "injecting" the kid with dual citizenship, I wonder where will OP finally decide which land he wants to step on. It may be seem as "abusing" the system. Plus, if the kid turns out to be a boy, avoiding NC will give ICA a bad impression when he comes to Singapore later on.


OP doesn't give a shit about the kids... his post reads like 'gimme gimme gimme' letter. Ask not what Singapore can do for you; but what the PAP can give you!


btw i do value my kid, boy or gal regardless .. it just probably if i can, earn what as a citizen deserve and i hope i preach what i say, the amount in pocket will be for the kid...not for me.

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Postby tsy19 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:02 pm

v4jr4 wrote:By "injecting" the kid with dual citizenship, I wonder where will OP finally decide which land he wants to step on. It may be seem as "abusing" the system. Plus, if the kid turns out to be a boy, avoiding NC will give ICA a bad impression when he comes to Singapore later on.


You are probably rite on the if i am "abusing" the system.. but govt money.. ain free in the first place and probably going to levy it back on u somewhere later.


:lol:

Like i mentioned, i hope to transit to hk when im older.. but in the meantime, for work and short to mid term... oz...but if i am happy in oz.. probably that will be my last stop.. Singapore will be transit stop for me.. i hope.. a place where i come and go when i want
:)

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Postby v4jr4 » Tue, 27 Nov 2012 11:06 pm

tsy19 wrote:Like i mentioned, i hope to transit to hk when im older.. but in the meantime, for work and short to mid term... oz...but if i am happy in oz.. probably that will be my last stop.. Singapore will be transit stop for me.. i hope.. a place where i come and go when i want
:)


Alright. But I assume you do know it will become harder for all of you if you choose to come back to Singapore.
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Re: Citizenship Situation for Kid/Family

Postby taxico » Wed, 28 Nov 2012 6:55 pm

tsy19 wrote:...serving a nation for the 2.5 years( currently 2 years now) which he could be better off , taking his deg or gaining work exp.

Some elders over here preached that being in NS is a good mental training for kid which i dont deny, but the day they regain their ic , they are back into a unforgiving world which they have to enter all over again.

Not to mention the reservist cycles and rt schedules they would have to meet in the subsequent life. Its crazy having to fight the corporate ladder, but its is disheartening to c many of my peers stuck in this limbo where they have to juggle all this.

The worse thing i feel, For NS are we defending our fellow singaporeans in times of need... or are we defending the 3 million PRs and work permits holders and give them enough time for them to jump boat back..


this is where i guess singapore's "national education" (sic?) has not paid off.

i have served in the military for two countries. i did not do so to protect illegal aliens and foreign talent.

i did so because it was the right thing to do. to protect and defend my country, and to preserve what i believe should be "our way of life."

i cannot change your views on what NS in singapore means, but all i can say is that it is more than buying time for "3 million PRs and WP holders" to jump ship.

singapore's more vulnerable than you think. a lot is at stake - with or (more so) without NS. you talk about wanting to visit singapore when you're old and no longer a SC, and staying in your HDB flat and visiting friends and family.

without NS, you would probably not even bother applying for a flat in the first place, and your planned visits in future non-existent.

there is no need for me to comment on whether or not NS hinders employment progress/aspects because i've not felt this was the case for many of my singaporean friends.

they kept fit, enjoyed paid "vacations" to catch up with old friends, and keep current with soldiering skills (euphemistically put) with each other. those who are genuinely indispensable to their company are usually granted a deferment.

further, why should you decide whether or not your child gets deprived of this experience? my anti-war baby boomer dad does not support the american selective service system, and did not support my desires to enlist in the US army but ultimately he left the decision up to me.

my mom, a hippie, did not want me to go through singapore NS but she knew i should be the one to make a decision. in both instances, i made my own informed decision and came out a better man.

if you're genuinely want to break free from the "singapore mould" (the container, not the green stuff) - perhaps you should consider allowing your son (if you get one) to make the decision for himself.

you have, after all, agreed that 2 years of NS could be beneficial for your son. who knows - he may choose to stay and take up citizenship elsewhere at a much later time (an easier path because of you and your wife).

tsy19 wrote:anyway since our kid is going to be born in hk, i would hope to let him have residency status in hk and focus more on the life elsewhere. Im not trying break the law for my kid to have dual citizen, but i would want to let him have another option.


your son is allowed to legally enjoy dual citizenship until the appropriate time comes for him to choose, usually during/after NS.

you should read up on the other threads in this sub-forum to see how other people handle the process for their SC children to avoid NS (and how it affects their future ties with singapore).

btw, i have no idea if a HK resident is considered a PRC citizen or not. i would think so, especially for the ones born there after 1997...

tsy19 wrote:...But it wont be so soon.. like i said.. 20 or 30 years down the road.. Most of my friends are planning to own a JB house and retire over there... But I am just taking the boundary a bit further.


that is probably under the "my second home" program, which means they are still SC.

tsy19 wrote:...In the past ( 1980 s ) , it was more defined between a pr and local and i greatly value tat... but it seems tat nowadays the line has been blurred....


this is probably something you should take up with your MP(s) and minister. if you feel something is wrong, VOICE IT OUT instead of waiting for the government to put it right for you.

the government is also taking steps to rectify the "problems" you've mentioned (knee jerk or not, we'll find out down the road).

the PAP is now, more than ever, willing to listen and you should make sure you use this opportunity - if not for yourself then for future generations of singaporeans.

i wish you all the best and i hope things work out the way you want to. my input to this thread ends here.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 28 Nov 2012 9:00 pm

My position is pretty well know here, so I'll refrain on commenting.

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Postby teck21 » Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:20 am

Why are Singaporeans kicking up such a big fuss about foreigners trying to 'game' the system for personal gain?

Not out of loyalty as they so loudly like to proclaim under the guise of NS, but purely because they have no way or no idea how to game the system for their own self-benefit.

They'd all do it in an instant if they could, but most cannot and suddenly it becomes a character flaw in other nationalities because they can.

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Postby v4jr4 » Thu, 29 Nov 2012 11:37 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:My position is pretty well know here, so I'll refrain on commenting.


Aw, come on. Curiosity will kill a cat :P

tsy19 wrote:The worse thing i feel, For NS are we defending our fellow singaporeans in times of need... or are we defending the 3 million PRs and work permits holders and give them enough time for them to jump boat back..


Basically, I can misunderstand your statement as follow: "Sian. 2 years join NS no result one." Well, I can't say that blaming the "aliens" (which also pay tax and may give other contributions to Singapore) is wrong, but I think you know that there are still SCs who flee and jump just to avoid NS, in which, in the end, won't contribute anything to Singapore.
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