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foreign manpower tightening

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 7:56 pm

Sergei82 wrote:And I wouldn't go to Pune even if they quadruple my salary. There are other reasons why I'm here (I'm not sure already about sanity of those reasons due to the situation)


Quite. Once the bank I worked for floated the idea to me of relo'ing to the new office in Bombay, 'Go there and you could retire in five years!'. I was 30 at the time, but still declined. Many things are more important than simply shedloads of money.

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 8:05 pm

JR8 wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:And I wouldn't go to Pune even if they quadruple my salary. There are other reasons why I'm here (I'm not sure already about sanity of those reasons due to the situation)


Quite. Once the bank I worked for floated the idea to me of relo'ing to the new office in Bombay, 'Go there and you could retire in five years!'. I was 30 at the time, but still declined. Many things are more important than simply shedloads of money.


To the point! I am 30. :)

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Postby Callput » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 8:18 pm

Sergei82 wrote:As I remember, ASME was originally lobbying the tightening of criteria for highly skilled foreign workers and easing S-pass criteria. They stepped on their own rake. If somebody still hasn't read, here:

http://www.asme.org.sg/index.php/news/n ... ing-survey

As an example for IT in finance, Credit Suisse (where I work now) moves a huge chunk of it from SG to Pune (Barclays also moves their back-office from SG to Pune), from London to Wroclaw, from NY to Raleigh. So it is a global tendency, not just because SG screwed up. Our team - we had a performance review in January, nobody came back to us with info abt our bonuses and salary increments by now - they are still "deciding", it's already November. :) A lot of people are running to Barclays - they're still hiring, some jumped to JP Morgan Chase.

We are also "encouraged" to go to work in Pune (not obligatory for now). 50% salary cut and contract position only. Only megamature and megatough Indians are happy to do that. :)


And majority of CS IT staff are from India and out of them a significant number are from Pune, thats because if you remember couple of years ago, they moved people from Pune to Singapore due to lack of quality and high attrition in Pune and now they are doing the reverse, apparently now quality takes a back seat :?

Mind you the move seems very sensible to many Indians because although salary becomes 50%, its their hometown so they dont pay absurd amounts on rents and do note that most of those Indians are on vendor payrolls here so they are making in the range of what 5k-6k a month? They will do better in pune with half that salary thats for sure.

As for you, your nick sounds like your from Russia or erstwhile USSR states? May be Wroclaw makes more sense for you ;)
Last edited by Callput on Wed, 14 Nov 2012 8:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Callput » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 8:23 pm

Sergei82 wrote:And I wouldn't go to Pune even if they quadruple my salary. There are other reasons why I'm here (I'm not sure already about sanity of those reasons due to the situation)


Well, the days of quadruple salaries for expats posted to low cost locations are over, haven't you heard of the saying "Mumbai, Shanghai, Dubai or... bye bye" :)

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Postby offshoreoildude » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 8:53 pm

nakatago wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:We are also "encouraged" to go to work in Pune (not obligatory for now). 50% salary cut and contract position only. Only megamature and megatough Indians are happy to do that. :)


Gee, those terms sure do sound very attractive. I wonder why people decline it.

/s

On a serious note, I just had a chat with our company president. He says the board can't really think of a solution about the lack of manpower. He cites the following factors:

* tightening pass requirements
* local (Singaporeans) engineers leaving to become bankers after only a short time
* the cost of relocating the company outside of Singapore.

And our company is a favored employer that gets more foreign workers than we're entitled to. He also reports to the EDB with citizens and PR's lumped together to give the illusion of a high local workforce. He suggests that EP holders then apply for PR (heh. Like that's gonna happen) so that foreigner quotas aren't an issue. Then later on my colleague then pointed out that rent are at astronomical rates.

So yeah, a high-level executive that genuinely looks lost about what to do about all this. He was earnestly asking for suggestions on what to do. And we're not in finance. We're manufacturing and R&D.


He has to take a long view. I am friends with the Technical Director of a large Oil Service co setting up a manufacturing/RnD facility in Tuas (the one with H in the front). He's hiring Singapore only grads and a heck of a lot of ITE people - he figures on retaining 30% for 5 years. He's thinking way ahead of the curve and assuming he won't be able to get foreigners.
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Postby nakatago » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:04 pm

offshoreoildude wrote:
nakatago wrote:
Sergei82 wrote:We are also "encouraged" to go to work in Pune (not obligatory for now). 50% salary cut and contract position only. Only megamature and megatough Indians are happy to do that. :)


Gee, those terms sure do sound very attractive. I wonder why people decline it.

/s

On a serious note, I just had a chat with our company president. He says the board can't really think of a solution about the lack of manpower. He cites the following factors:

* tightening pass requirements
* local (Singaporeans) engineers leaving to become bankers after only a short time
* the cost of relocating the company outside of Singapore.

And our company is a favored employer that gets more foreign workers than we're entitled to. He also reports to the EDB with citizens and PR's lumped together to give the illusion of a high local workforce. He suggests that EP holders then apply for PR (heh. Like that's gonna happen) so that foreigner quotas aren't an issue. Then later on my colleague then pointed out that rent are at astronomical rates.

So yeah, a high-level executive that genuinely looks lost about what to do about all this. He was earnestly asking for suggestions on what to do. And we're not in finance. We're manufacturing and R&D.


He has to take a long view. I am friends with the Technical Director of a large Oil Service co setting up a manufacturing/RnD facility in Tuas (the one with H in the front). He's hiring Singapore only grads and a heck of a lot of ITE people - he figures on retaining 30% for 5 years. He's thinking way ahead of the curve and assuming he won't be able to get foreigners.


He is but our company really needs sh#1+ tons of engineers Singapore just can't provide. Moreover, being an MNC, some shots are just not his to take.

But most probably, he just doesn't to say out loud what plan C is since he was with our team one of which is only Singaporean (and a naturalized one at that).

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:12 pm

Callput wrote:Well, the days of quadruple salaries for expats posted to low cost locations are over, haven't you heard of the saying "Mumbai, Shanghai, Dubai or... bye bye" :)


Depends how much they need you and your expertise, I was offered significantly more than 4*.

In any case, I'm not sure what you mean by your comment. Can you clarify?

- There are no expats sent to 'low cost locations'
- Expats are willing to uproot their lives and relo, and be paid the same as locals
- Expertise that the locals lack is not worth a premium.
- Errr...

Which is it?

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Postby Callput » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:21 pm

JR8 wrote:
Callput wrote:Well, the days of quadruple salaries for expats posted to low cost locations are over, haven't you heard of the saying "Mumbai, Shanghai, Dubai or... bye bye" :)


Depends how much they need you and your expertise, I was offered significantly more than 4*.

In any case, I'm not sure what you mean by your comment. Can you clarify?

- There are no expats sent to 'low cost locations'
- Expats are willing to uproot their lives and relo, and be paid the same as locals
- Expertise that the locals lack is not worth a premium.
- Errr...

Which is it?


I think its the 2nd one, I am talking with regards to Investment Banking in particular.

The quote I made became very famous during the Lehman crash years and I think its only going to become more and more relevant.

Have you read the news about UBS going to fire 10,000 employees in the next 3 years?

http://www.expatica.com/ch/news/local_n ... 48936.html

and most of these jobs cuts are happening in London, New York and Zurich. Imagine the amount the supply of Investment bankers in the market and how many fresh MBA grads coming out in the next 3 years. You still think there will be expats paid a premium to relocate expecially if you a 30 year old "low in the career ladder" trader or IT guy?

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:39 pm

Callput wrote:As for you, your nick sounds like your from Russia or erstwhile USSR states? May be Wroclaw makes more sense for you ;)


Ukraine. But we have a guy from Wroclaw in the office - he is fine going back home.

JR8 wrote:In any case, I'm not sure what you mean by your comment. Can you clarify?


I meant that only a single thought about India makes me cringe. I dun want to take crap in bushes or under a tree (otherwise only in pants since no toilet around), wash my ass with my left hand from a jar with tap water (no toilet paper) and then eat rice with my hands after it. And after all I'll come back home having 50 meter long segmented "friend" eating my liver alive and science does know any way how to get it out of me...

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Postby nakatago » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:43 pm

...oh, who me? What am I doing here? I'm waiting for an offended and pissed-off Indian to rebut.

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Postby v4jr4 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:49 pm

Sergei82 wrote:
JR8 wrote:In any case, I'm not sure what you mean by your comment. Can you clarify?


I meant that only a single thought about India makes me cringe. I dun want to take crap in bushes or under a tree (otherwise only in pants since no toilet around), wash my ass with my left hand from a jar with tap water (no toilet paper) and then eat rice with my hands after it. And after all I'll come back home having 50 meter long segmented "friend" eating my liver alive and science does know any way how to get it out of me...


*grabs popcorn*
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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 9:59 pm

Callput wrote:And majority of CS IT staff are from India and out of them a significant number are from Pune, thats because if you remember couple of years ago, they moved people from Pune to Singapore due to lack of quality and high attrition in Pune and now they are doing the reverse, apparently now quality takes a back seat :?

Mind you the move seems very sensible to many Indians because although salary becomes 50%, its their hometown so they dont pay absurd amounts on rents and do note that most of those Indians are on vendor payrolls here so they are making in the range of what 5k-6k a month? They will do better in pune with half that salary thats for sure.



Unfortunately, CS moved lack of quality from Pune to SG together with those Indians. :( So what's the point keeping them here? Fortunately, I'm from front office and most of our team are already in Pune, so we are reasonably safe in SG.

Other thing, its not correct to think that CS had a lot of IT in Pune. Even now there are only abt 200 ppl in Pune office, but they are rapidly expanding of course... More people in CS Mumbai though.

Btw, majority in CS are not from Pune, but from some village somewhere in between Pune and Mumbai with 1 toilet per 10 square kilometers. They consider SGD 6K/month as extreme happiness to strive towards for a decade.

Vendor payrolls - I never saw any opening of permanent position in CS IT SG for the last 2 years - only a couple for AVP and VP. Other folk are all sitting on vendor payroll - Americans, Swedish etc (95% are Indians anyway).

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:09 pm

nakatago wrote:...oh, who me? What am I doing here? I'm waiting for an offended and pissed-off Indian to rebut.


They will not. Interestingly, some of them have exactly the same opinion about other fellow Indians in general...
At least, it is to some extent better than Koreans. For those (in general, I really met a lot who are different, but that's my thoughts after living for 2,5 years in Seoul) the best job would be cleaning 3 km long toilet with a toothbrush: he looks like a hardworking guy, and at the same time doing nothing - that way it is safer.

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Postby Callput » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:10 pm

Sergei82 wrote:
Callput wrote:And majority of CS IT staff are from India and out of them a significant number are from Pune, thats because if you remember couple of years ago, they moved people from Pune to Singapore due to lack of quality and high attrition in Pune and now they are doing the reverse, apparently now quality takes a back seat :?

Mind you the move seems very sensible to many Indians because although salary becomes 50%, its their hometown so they dont pay absurd amounts on rents and do note that most of those Indians are on vendor payrolls here so they are making in the range of what 5k-6k a month? They will do better in pune with half that salary thats for sure.



Unfortunately, CS moved lack of quality from Pune to SG together with those Indians. :( So what's the point keeping them here? Fortunately, I'm from front office and most of our team are already in Pune, so we are reasonably safe in SG.

Other thing, its not correct to think that CS had a lot of IT in Pune. Even now there are only abt 200 ppl in Pune office, but they are rapidly expanding of course... More people in CS Mumbai though.

Btw, majority in CS are not from Pune, but from some village somewhere in between Pune and Mumbai with 1 toilet per 10 square kilometers. They consider SGD 6K/month as extreme happiness to strive towards for a decade.

Vendor payrolls - I never saw any opening of permanent position in CS IT SG for the last 2 years - only a couple for AVP and VP. Other folk are all sitting on vendor payroll - Americans, Swedish etc (95% are Indians anyway).


Yeah, agree with you on the Vendor Payrolls thing, but the biggest draw for those folks to remain at CS is the 9-6 work culture and no slogging butt like other companies out there.

Barclays is ofcourse the biggest attraction pulling folks out from CS, thats mainly because Barclays offers mostly permanent positions, with better salaries but then again from what I hear, they are much more trigger happy than CS when it comes to non performance. :-|

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Postby Sergei82 » Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:30 pm

For myself - don't see any reason to jump from bank to bank right now. Barclays is more often in the news than CS (always in a trouble). CS already cut few billion swiss franks of costs (read: laid off a lot of people) - don't think it is easy to get much leaner than that. Still one billion to cut in plans, but throughout the world (not only in SG) and within 3 years.
And UBS cutting fixed income is not a big concern for CS: CS already killed its fixed income almost completely in the end of last year.

Btw, Barclays is very suspicious: always hiring and laying off big bunches of people - recession or not. Regularly freezes and unfreezes hiring. A few years back I applied there, passed all interviews successfully, freeze came right after I sent them my documents... I'm not sure how Barclays works in other countries, but SGrean HRs in Barclays are quite scary.


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