foreign manpower tightening

[Brah]

Right, I put the caveat about my definition not being the official definition, my take is as Callput has it.

Again, I'd be very interested to see industry demographics for the region, there must be a website for that.

And something like this: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm
...which kinda shattered my dream* to relocate to Southern California.

Or more simplistically, something like this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/49436114?slide=1

...which is US-centric but you know what I mean.

*that, and reading things like this: http://www.overfiftyandoutofwork.com/10 ... orge-ross/ - a guy who does similar work as me

[offshoreoildude]

Right, I put the caveat about my definition not being the official definition, my take is as Callput has it.

Again, I'd be very interested to see industry demographics for the region, there must be a website for that.

And something like this: http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm
...which kinda shattered my dream* to relocate to Southern California.

Or more simplistically, something like this: http://www.cnbc.com/id/49436114?slide=1

...which is US-centric but you know what I mean.

*that, and reading things like this: http://www.overfiftyandoutofwork.com/10 ... orge-ross/ - a guy who does similar work as me

I'm so glad I got out of IT.

[movingtospore]

Well you raise an interesting point, I'm not as familiar with non-Finance as I am with Finance companies, I wonder what the spread is for other industries and home base countries in Asia.

The company* I currently work for has its Asia / Pacific HQ in Singapore, but I suspect that's quite a bit just due to the legacy from when we had manufacturing here. Now most of the building is call centers. Also, Quite a lot is shifting to China (not just outsourced manufacturing, but proper company operations).



* - I guess we'd be consumer electronics or something, and we're one of the most profitable companies in the world.

In my organization, what I'm seeing a shift of the big money back to Hong Kong (if it ever really left). As second fiddle to Hong Kong, in finance, SP can always get by, but I don't see how they're going to avoid a pretty tough time ahead if at the same time they're chasing all the manufacturing out, squeezing the SMEs out, and have the locals pissed at them for a host of reasons. It's going to be an interesting few years.

[movingtospore]

It's been happening for at least 10-12 years. Started with Credit Suisse IT staff to Singapore, then a lot of those people went back to Japan because they didn't like it here. That was when people actually had some semblance of choice...

The next wave started around 2003-04, and has been continuing. Those are my guesses, I could be wrong on the dates.

The change is that where it was Japan => Singapore, then Japan => Singapore & HK, it appears to be Japan => HK going forward.

That's for the ones who actually saw Singapore as a strategic location - some others like Goldman and Morgan Stanley have to date not really done this.

I see Singapore as a staging ground to centralize and commoditize jobs, then replace internal staff with vendors, then offshore those positions to India, China, the Philippines, and some Eastern Bloc countries, depending on the work.

And that scope of work is expanding - it's not just IT to India, etc. but Equity Research, etc. and I've heard soon trading; some companies like DB have already moved a lot of back-office operations to the Philippines.

Last week someone in Japan was telling me that while the mass exodus from Japan (due to the continued high JPY rate) continues and is probably accelerating, if in fact anyone is left there, that one company has said that they will no longer offshore to Singapore and will just move people to HK.

That's one company - if one is doing it, so will others.

I certainly know one major bank has been moving some of their expats from Japan to HK....if it is ongoing, I don't know.

You are exactly right Brah, this is precisely what I've seen in my business. I personally won't be betting in SP. Thinking they'll get by, they'll be around, but they're in trouble.

[offshoreoildude]

It's been happening for at least 10-12 years. Started with Credit Suisse IT staff to Singapore, then a lot of those people went back to Japan because they didn't like it here. That was when people actually had some semblance of choice...

The next wave started around 2003-04, and has been continuing. Those are my guesses, I could be wrong on the dates.

The change is that where it was Japan => Singapore, then Japan => Singapore & HK, it appears to be Japan => HK going forward.

That's for the ones who actually saw Singapore as a strategic location - some others like Goldman and Morgan Stanley have to date not really done this.

I see Singapore as a staging ground to centralize and commoditize jobs, then replace internal staff with vendors, then offshore those positions to India, China, the Philippines, and some Eastern Bloc countries, depending on the work.

And that scope of work is expanding - it's not just IT to India, etc. but Equity Research, etc. and I've heard soon trading; some companies like DB have already moved a lot of back-office operations to the Philippines.

I certainly know one major bank has been moving some of their expats from Japan to HK....if it is ongoing, I don't know.

You are exactly right Brah, this is precisely what I've seen in my business. I personally won't be betting in SP. Thinking they'll get by, they'll be around, but they're in trouble.

I personally thought China had a chance at pulling in some of this to Shanghai in the late 90's and early 2000's when they built Pudong. Unfortunately they didn't turn Pudong into a SEZ like Shekhou and it didn't take off as much as it could have.

[ScoobyDoes]

I personally thought China had a chance at pulling in some of this to Shanghai in the late 90's and early 2000's when they built Pudong. Unfortunately they didn't turn Pudong into a SEZ like Shekhou and it didn't take off as much as it could have.

The chance is still good as they open more banking/insurance reforms under WTO.

I was in Jakarta a couple of weeks ago and just happened to pass a huge new development not far from the airport that is professing to become a new financial hub together with a brand new well known 5* hotel. As I said, just passed it and can't remember much about the place now but it won't surprise me if there are jobs moving out of SG to there.

[v4jr4]

I personally thought China had a chance at pulling in some of this to Shanghai in the late 90's and early 2000's when they built Pudong. Unfortunately they didn't turn Pudong into a SEZ like Shekhou and it didn't take off as much as it could have.

The chance is still good as they open more banking/insurance reforms under WTO.

I was in Jakarta a couple of weeks ago and just happened to pass a huge new development not far from the airport that is professing to become a new financial hub together with a brand new well known 5* hotel. As I said, just passed it and can't remember much about the place now but it won't surprise me if there are jobs moving out of SG to there.

Jakarta with that hellish infrastructure? Ouch
Alright, the new governor will try to fix it within 5 years (but with the corrupted thugs inside the system, I wonder if he'll use some new tricks)

The areas around Soekarno-Hatta airport are not fully developed. Yet, if it will be the new hub, I doubt it will be done soon.

[Brah]

While I have little to no personal interest to work in Jakarta, and have a variety of concerns about the place, from what I'm hearing the job market is quite strong there.

I hafta wonder if an expat package might just make it a bearable place to live and work for a couple of years. I know some people who worked there and said they liked it, but that was years ago and no idea how it's changed since.

For me this would be more like a Plan D, but one I have little-to-no knowledge about.

[v4jr4]

While I have little to no personal interest to work in Jakarta, and have a variety of concerns about the place, from what I'm hearing the job market is quite strong there.

I hafta wonder if an expat package might just make it a bearable place to live and work for a couple of years. I know some people who worked there and said they liked it, but that was years ago and no idea how it's changed since.

For me this would be more like a Plan D, but one I have little-to-no knowledge about.

You may get a good package, but the safety and comfort level may be . . . unbearable

[sundaymorningstaple]

My best friend, a Kiwi, has been working in Jkt for the past 1.5 years and has no problems with it. He will be proceeding to the site in lower Java a couple of hours out of Surabaya around the first of the year. (He's a planning/scheduling engineer).

Granted it was a number of years ago, but I worked throughout Indonesia from the early 80' till around 1994 and have never had any problems at all either. A healthy dose of common sense and you can do okay there.

[v4jr4]

My best friend, a Kiwi, has been working in Jkt for the past 1.5 years and has no problems with it. He will be proceeding to the site in lower Java a couple of hours out of Surabaya around the first of the year. (He's a planning/scheduling engineer).

Granted it was a number of years ago, but I worked throughout Indonesia from the early 80' till around 1994 and have never had any problems at all either. A healthy dose of common sense and you can do okay there.

The situation at Jakarta before 98 was a little bit better. But yes. A healthy dose of common sense will do (and sometimes, a small of pocket money, or "cigarette money" [uang rokok] will do as well)

[Callput]

Did you guys see the article in CNA today? It's about more ep holders getting downgraded to s pass. Until now all this was getting discussed only in this forum, now Ep tightening has become front page news lately, haha.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Believe me, it's being discussed a lot outside of this forum, especially among HR Manager like myself. Fully 45% of my staff are foreigners and at the moment my S pass holders are something like 10 over quota when the new changes came about. So, we know we will be losing the next 10 S pass renewals when they happen, qualified or not, (this, I might say, is going to be a real bummer unless somehow we manage to hire a lot of local to work in the pest control business (which was on the news last night because of what I'm speaking about at the moment - it goes across the whole industry)

My boss is ripping his hair out. Me, I would as well, but I don't have any to rip out and they are not about to give me a brazillian!

[offshoreoildude]

When you live in Venice and the Medicis run it.... anything can happen.

[zzm9980]

When you live in Venice and the Medicis run it.... anything can happen.

The Medici's were from Florence

(and I only know that because I watch the Borgias)