Singapore Expats Forum

LOC's being refused

Discuss about getting a well paid job or career advancement. Ask about salaries, expat packages, CPF & taxes for expatriate.

Travailes
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed, 04 May 2011

LOC's being refused

Postby Travailes » Sun, 14 Oct 2012 9:24 pm

Have heard several stories this week where DPs have had LOCs declined when submitted by potential employers with no reason given. I don't get the sense in this when people like these (and I include myself) are barred from working in relatively low paid jobs when the industries (mostly service related, F&B etc) are unable to find local workers to take up the roles. It is not like we are depriving someone of a job, we live here and happy to pay tax etc and the locals don't want them !
You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everyone gets to dance with the grim reaper.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11109
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Sun, 14 Oct 2012 9:40 pm

Singapore will shortly learn how short sighted these new policies are.

When people stop wanting to come to Singapore, the MNC's will start to look elsewhere. Then expat employment will drop, total economic contribution to the Singapore economy will drop, and in particular, rents and housing will tumble... although my eyes remain dry for the plight of greedy landlords.

User avatar
Mi Amigo
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sat, 19 Jun 2004
Location: Kinto Pino

Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 6:09 am

^^^ What he said.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; in this case the 'foreigner' is already here and as to the idea of taking a job from a Singaporean, last time I checked the unemployment rate it was around 2%. As has been pointed out (and experienced by many of us), the shortage of suitable / willing staff for F&B outlets, etc. is plain to see.

Short-term 'populist' policies have caused a lot of the problems in my old country over recent decades; they could also have serious long term consequences for this country, as SE as pointed out.

Time to change my sig again, methinks...
Be careful what you wish for

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9812
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 9:00 am

Mi Amigo wrote:^^^ What he said.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; in this case the 'foreigner' is already here and as to the idea of taking a job from a Singaporean, last time I checked the unemployment rate it was around 2%. As has been pointed out (and experienced by many of us), the shortage of suitable / willing staff for F&B outlets, etc. is plain to see.

Short-term 'populist' policies have caused a lot of the problems in my old country over recent decades; they could also have serious long term consequences for this country, as SE as pointed out.

Time to change my sig again, methinks...


the smaller issue is .. as noted before, those on DP tend to take on jobs, at lower rates .. like the case of IT specialists working for 2,000 plus $ for a job that should pay atleast 5,000 $ .. and cases of DP / LOC holders working in Subway and MacDonalds and KFc, for much lower rate than locals.

The locals - let's say a minority, do know that the LOC holders are depressing wages and that's the truth

Part of the blame should go to bosses who specifically ask fro DP holders - go around some of the malls, like City Plaza, Goldern Mile, or Lucky plaza - you will see such notices - "DP holders welcome .. "

Travailes
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed, 04 May 2011

Postby Travailes » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 9:36 am

ecureilx wrote:
Mi Amigo wrote:^^^ What he said.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; in this case the 'foreigner' is already here and as to the idea of taking a job from a Singaporean, last time I checked the unemployment rate it was around 2%. As has been pointed out (and experienced by many of us), the shortage of suitable / willing staff for F&B outlets, etc. is plain to see.

Short-term 'populist' policies have caused a lot of the problems in my old country over recent decades; they could also have serious long term consequences for this country, as SE as pointed out.

Time to change my sig again, methinks...


the smaller issue is .. as noted before, those on DP tend to take on jobs, at lower rates .. like the case of IT specialists working for 2,000 plus $ for a job that should pay atleast 5,000 $ .. and cases of DP / LOC holders working in Subway and MacDonalds and KFc, for much lower rate than locals.

The locals - let's say a minority, do know that the LOC holders are depressing wages and that's the truth

Part of the blame should go to bosses who specifically ask fro DP holders - go around some of the malls, like City Plaza, Goldern Mile, or Lucky plaza - you will see such notices - "DP holders welcome .. "


Come off it ! The number of DPs working is a drop in the ocean versus the overall local and expat workforce. If someone is prepared to do a job for less than someone else - that's economics. The reality is that most people's expectations here are way too high - driven by a unrealistic aspiration to live life at the max. It is the result of creating an unbalanced educational journey where results are seen as the only driver for success.
You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everyone gets to dance with the grim reaper.

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9812
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 9:50 am

Travailes wrote:Come off it ! The number of DPs working is a drop in the ocean versus the overall local and expat workforce. If someone is prepared to do a job for less than someone else - that's economics. The reality is that most people's expectations here are way too high - driven by a unrealistic aspiration to live life at the max. It is the result of creating an unbalanced educational journey where results are seen as the only driver for success.


that's interesting .. I didn't insist that the DPs I know are causing the economy of Singapore to collapse - I just shared what I know ..

and ..... your argument, in my humble opinion, will not win votes .... and the fact is, for the past 10 years or so wages have been depressed pretty much significantly, even without correlating to rising cost of living .. forget about living life the max ..

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11109
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:08 am

ecureilx wrote:and the fact is, for the past 10 years or so wages have been depressed pretty much significantly, even without correlating to rising cost of living .. forget about living life the max ..


This certainly has nothing to do with DP's and almost everything to do with the large influx of foreign workers that were permitted in... specifically, I think, to keep labor costs down to keep Singapore competitive.

It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Let labor costs rise so that the locals make a decent living and Singapore becomes noncompetitive and expensive in so many areas... from retail to F&B... not to mention the costs of doing business.

I'll say it again... one of the most corrosive economic aspects of Singapore has been the unbridled, and unjustified, rise in property costs... it directly and indirectly drives up the cost of everything else, from food to transport to salaries for employees who need to make ends meet.

So... you may be right about depressed salaries, but DP's on LOC have very little, if anything to do with it... and when the primary wage earner sours on Singapore because their spouse cannot find any employment, Singapore will lose a lot more economic benefit than a few dollars that an LOC might "cost".

It's all talk over a beer... and... the consensus amongst my friends and acquaintances is that Singapore is becoming an undesirable destination... costs too high... perceived anti foreigner sentiments... and a quality of life that isn't what it was even five years ago.
Last edited by Strong Eagle on Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ecureilx
Immortal
Immortal
Posts: 9812
Joined: Fri, 20 Aug 2010

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:24 am

Strong Eagle wrote:It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Let labor costs rise so that the locals make a decent living and Singapore becomes noncompetitive and expensive in so many areas... from retail to F&B... not to mention the costs of doing business.

>>

It's all talk over a beer... and... the consensus amongst my friends and acquaintances is that Singapore is becoming an undesirable destination... costs to high... perceived anti foreigner sentiments.


the above .. I totally agree

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35160
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:27 am

It's not even qualified to be a Asian experience any more either, so the "adventure" part is out of the equation as well. And it's an expensive "Hub" to explore Asia from as well.

User avatar
nakatago
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8333
Joined: Tue, 01 Sep 2009
Location: Sister Margaret’s School for Wayward Children
Contact:

Postby nakatago » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:28 am

Even, I who is not a business type, could see this. The government is really in denial if they say it isn't.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11109
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:16 am

nakatago wrote:Even, I who is not a business type, could see this. The government is really in denial if they say it isn't.


An even more complicated set of factors also doesn't bode well for the Singapore economy.

a) More and more "average" individuals are seeing their EP's rejected, even from MNC's, and certainly for PEP's... like the gahmen wants to see a job and not just a job hunter. Net effect: Companies that want to move/hire non SC workers are now out of luck.

b) Costs are rising to the extent that a "decent" life costs at least $8K per month... and that's frugal if you want to eat out, live in a nice condo, and gawd forbid, drive a car. But companies don't want to pay this kind of money for "average" individuals and people don't want to lower their standard of living. Net effect: Smaller pool of "average" talent that is available, particularly to MNC's.

While MNC's, who hire hundreds, if not thousands of locals, probably still pretty much get whatever EP they ask for, the handwriting is on the wall. It costs too much to send the "average" employee for the Asian experience as part of a growth and promotion program. And sooner or later, as EP's are tightened up on the small businesses that support the MNC's in many ways, the availability of talent via contract will become hard to find. Coupled with rent that is astounding, I can see MNC's looking for greener pastures, maybe even in JB, if not Penang, KL, or even HK... not on the island.

Travailes
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 227
Joined: Wed, 04 May 2011

Postby Travailes » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 4:39 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
I'll say it again... one of the most corrosive economic aspects of Singapore has been the unbridled, and unjustified, rise in property costs... it directly and indirectly drives up the cost of everything else, from food to transport to salaries for employees who need to make ends meet.


I wouldn't disagree with that sentiment. Prices are driven by the cost of acquiring land and demand for property as well as cheap money to borrow - this bit I understand. What I don't get is the scale of the building - when it costs so much to get on the ladder and there is not a population explosion waiting for new houses to be built - where is the demand coming from ? Is the old family structure breaking up and kids now want there own places ? The government built 26,000 HDB homes last year for the less advantaged so they are cared for and will continue on this scale as well as renovating old stock. I assume much of it is going to investors who are in for a rude shock when the recession bites and demand dries up coupled with positive discrimination against foreign talent whose MNCs will pay the rents. Interesting times ahead !
You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everyone gets to dance with the grim reaper.

User avatar
v4jr4
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 887
Joined: Mon, 09 Jul 2012
Location: Chocolate Factory

Postby v4jr4 » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 5:19 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:^^^ What he said.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me; in this case the 'foreigner' is already here and as to the idea of taking a job from a Singaporean, last time I checked the unemployment rate it was around 2%. As has been pointed out (and experienced by many of us), the shortage of suitable / willing staff for F&B outlets, etc. is plain to see.

Short-term 'populist' policies have caused a lot of the problems in my old country over recent decades; they could also have serious long term consequences for this country, as SE as pointed out.

Time to change my sig again, methinks...


That's the same thing I put in the discussion with some of my friends (some PRs, some EPs) as well. According to them, the SCs unemployment rate has nothing to do with it. They prefer to guess that this is a "justified" policy where gahmen tries to achieve "1-stone-2-birds" result. "Too many foreigners won't bring the success rate up even further," is what one of my friend said (although I fail to fully comprehend it).

Perhaps, this is a "guinea experiment" to see if the productivity can be raised by cutting off foreigners, and boosting the SCs employment rate.
"Budget Expat"

User avatar
Mi Amigo
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1791
Joined: Sat, 19 Jun 2004
Location: Kinto Pino

Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 8:13 pm

v4jr4 wrote:That's the same thing I put in the discussion with some of my friends (some PRs, some EPs) as well. According to them, the SCs unemployment rate has nothing to do with it. They prefer to guess that this is a "justified" policy where gahmen tries to achieve "1-stone-2-birds" result. "Too many foreigners won't bring the success rate up even further," is what one of my friend said (although I fail to fully comprehend it).

I fail to comprehend it at all. They may well end up killing two birds with one stone, but they'd both be geese - the ones that lay the golden eggs.

Perhaps, this is a "guinea experiment" to see if the productivity can be raised by cutting off foreigners...

Good luck with that, Singapore. IMO, in order to achieve such an increase in productivity it would be necessary to drastically overhaul the education system, so that Singaporeans are (a) able and (b) not afraid to think radically, take the initiative, question the status quo, proactively seek out alternative solutions, etc., etc. Right now the only real encouragement I see for that kind of behaviour is coming from the very foreigners (in management positions) they want to get rid of.

...and boosting the SCs employment rate.

What, from 98% to 100%? Rather difficult I'd suggest.

Looking at various online forums where Singaporeans vent their spleens, I really can't find much in the way of logical argument or rational discussion at all. It looks like they don't really know what exactly they want; they just want to complain, spew offensive vitriol in our direction and get rid of everything that the gahmen has built up over the decades. But what would they put in its place? I've seen no clues about that at all.
Be careful what you wish for

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35160
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 15 Oct 2012 9:03 pm

I don't think they are trying to "boost" employment but to shuffle it around and get all their PMET's who are driving taxis, back into PMET positions. That's where the biggest beef is with regards to employment. This will impact primarily S, Q & P2 Pass holders. P1 & PEP holders to a lesser extent.


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Careers & Jobs in Singapore”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: danasi5788 and 0 guests