HELP: Tenancy Agreement & a pool

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Scott_Tanya
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HELP: Tenancy Agreement & a pool

Post by Scott_Tanya » Tue, 18 Sep 2012 8:43 pm

Hi All

Recently moved into a landed property and one of the key factors in us deciding to lease the place was that it had space to have a Liner pool put in.

A liner pool in Singapore can be rented, the pool company come in, excavate, install, deck and maintain each week for the 2 year agreement (we have numerous friends with this set up, all without issue) At the end of the agreement which coincides with your lease they remove the pool, refill the hole and re-turf etc (return the site to as was condition).

We bought this up prior to leasing the property and our agent informed us in writing the following which we assume came from landlord or landlords agent

on May 22nd
"The pool - need to seek approval from owner and if it is approved the cost to be absorbed by tenant if there is no renewal after 2 year lease. Tenant has to reinstate the front yard to its original condition"

This was followed with on May 23rd
" Pool - unsure whats below ground, preferably above ground"

So we rented the property and enlisted 2 pool companies. Both advised that there should be no issues with underground pipe/cabling looking at the site layout. We chose one of these companies and had the pool installed without issues.

Owner now has seen the pool and was quite upset saying we breached the TA. We arranged a meeting where he bought an architect to inspect the pool

He advises he 'clearly stated no digging' - we have no email stating or communication with this was conveyed to us. We only have the above email extracts

He is now asking us to provide
- Pool complies with BCA & URA regulations (check it does)

- He wants assurances site will be returned to as was (check we will do this)

- He wants a further 2 months rent as deposit (this is my sticking point, i dont see how he can ask for this, a pool was discussed prior contract, we havent breached any part of the agreement - or have we) as its a standard TA agreement. Even if we carried out what he considers unauthorized alterations under clause (k) as long as they are remedied at our cost by end of lease i don't believe we are in breach?

- He wants us to cover any of his expenses incurred to resolve the issue (also a sticking point)

He believes we have breached by not informing him I assume. I believe that this was covered in the negotiations of the contract where we stipulated we wanted a pool and his or his assigned agents responses above form part of said contract.

Can anyone assist here or offer any advice, it would be much appreciated.

Thks in advance
Last edited by Scott_Tanya on Fri, 21 Sep 2012 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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movingtospore
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Post by movingtospore » Tue, 18 Sep 2012 9:12 pm

What does your agent have to say for him or herself? (useless lot the best of times). Seems to me it is their fault not yours and you should refer the owner to them.

We had a much more minor situation re our air con - owner flipped out when we hired our own company to do some repairs - but we had informed the agent and they said it was fine, in writing. Once we put that under the owner's nose and informed the owner in writing that this was not our problem due to such and such communication from the agent, that shut him up.

I don't think the owner can randomly ask for more money. You are within your rights to refuse that and complain. One of the other regulars can advise better than me - I do believe there is an agency you can take this up with.

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Post by offshoreoildude » Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:24 am

Refer all enquiries to the agent. You're not required to deal with the LL if there is an agent in the middle. Refuse all requests for payment. Inform the owner that he is trespassing if enters property without your permission or adequate notice and that he is disturbing your 'enjoyment of the property'. Above poster is corrrect - there is a tribunal. The owner sounds a typical butthurt sinkie who needs a wakeup call.

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Post by ScoobyDoes » Wed, 19 Sep 2012 9:54 am

offshoreoildude wrote:Above poster is corrrect - there is a tribunal. The owner sounds a typical butthurt sinkie who needs a wakeup call.

It is quite possible the agent didn't even pass the 'pool' request to the landlord in its entirety and was so eager to get the deal done he/she just about agreed to everything saying 'seek approval from owner' to pass the buck.

I must admit, unless you had written approval (email/sms) agreeing to the installation and type of installation you shouldn't have just forking out to get it done. If you have written approval then you have a right to tell LL to get stuffed until the end of the tenancy.
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'

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Post by x9200 » Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:16 pm

Scott_Tanya wrote:Hi All

Recently moved into a landed property and one of the key factors in us deciding to lease the place was that it had space to have a Liner pool put in.

A liner pool in Singapore can be rented, the pool company come in, excavate, install, deck and maintain each week for the 2 year agreement (we have numerous friends with this set up, all without issue) At the end of the agreement which coincides with your lease they remove the pool, refill the hole and re-turf etc (return the site to as was condition).

We bought this up prior to leasing the property and our agent informed us in writing the following which we assume came from landlord or landlords agent

on May 22nd
"The pool - need to seek approval from owner and if it is approved the cost to be absorbed by tenant if there is no renewal after 2 year lease. Tenant has to reinstate the front yard to its original condition"

This was followed with on May 23rd
" Pool - unsure whats below ground, preferably above ground"

So we rented the property and enlisted 2 pool companies. Both advised that there should be no issues with underground pipe/cabling looking at the site layout. We chose one of these companies and had the pool installed without issues.

Owner now has seen the pool and was quite upset saying we breached the TA. We arranged a meeting where he bought an architect to inspect the pool

He advises he 'clearly stated no digging' - we have no email stating or communication with this was conveyed to us. We only have the above email extracts

He is now asking us to provide
- Pool complies with BCA & URA regulations (check it does)

- He wants assurances site will be returned to as was (check we will do this)

- He wants a further 2 months rent as deposit (this is my sticking point, i dont see how he can ask for this, a pool was discussed prior contract, we havent breached any part of the agreement - or have we) as its a standard TA agreement. Even if we carried out what he considers unauthorized alterations under clause (k) as long as they are remedied at our cost by end of lease i don't believe we are in breach?

- He wants us to cover any of his expenses incurred to resolve the issue (also a sticking point)

He believes we have breached by not informing him I assume. I believe that this was covered in the negotiations of the contract where we stipulated we wanted a pool and his or his assigned agents responses above form part of said contract.

Can anyone assist here or offer any advice, it would be much appreciated.

Thks in advance
As far as it goes for the standard types of TA IMHO you are in breach. Digging a big hole in the middle of the rented property is not its standard use. It does not mater you are going to restore it to the original shape (if possible in short time what I doubt). You can not just significantly alter the property without the consent from the LL. You can not remove the walls or the roof (just examples to illustrate) even if your intention is to restore it. Such things you should have covered under TA. E-mails from the agents are not a part of TA. Again, with the standard wordings of many local TAs the LL can kick you out right now so I would be careful.

Besides, this message:
" Pool - unsure whats below ground, preferably above ground"

does not give you any permission (even informal) to go ahead and on top of this it leaves uncertain whether you will be allowed at all if it involves anything to be done under ground. I don't think you can blame your agent for the whole situation.

I would suggest to agree on the deposit but 2 months deposit is too much. You should agree with LL how much would it cost to restore the place and top-up the deposit accordingly.
Last edited by x9200 on Sun, 23 Sep 2012 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Scott_Tanya
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Post by Scott_Tanya » Wed, 19 Sep 2012 3:28 pm

Thanks everyone appreciate the feedback and advice.

Hopefully i can come to a resolution with him, especially if general consensus is 2 months additional bond is a bit high. Hopefully we can meet in the middle somewhere

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Post by offshoreoildude » Wed, 19 Sep 2012 9:49 pm

I can't believe you guys are defending the sinkie LL. He is completely trying it on. My reading is that the agent indicated the pool had been approved. It's not the tenants issue now, it's between the LL and useless agent.

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Post by ScoobyDoes » Thu, 20 Sep 2012 9:33 am

offshoreoildude wrote:I can't believe you guys are defending the sinkie LL. He is completely trying it on. My reading is that the agent indicated the pool had been approved. It's not the tenants issue now, it's between the LL and useless agent.

Nowhere, in what OP wrote, does it say the pool had been approved and certainly not in writing from the landlord. It is not solely up to the agent to indicate approval, but rather have actual approval.

As x9200 said, it may be argued that the second message.....
This was followed with on May 23rd
" Pool - unsure whats below ground, preferably above ground"
adds weight to a possibility the landlord did agree a pool but stated it was preferrable to be above ground anyway but again, there isn't anything specifically agreeing the installation. Again, this message is not directly from LL.

Not defending the LL completely, but OP left an open door and legally, as x9200 said again, is likely in breach of the TA.
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'

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Post by offshoreoildude » Sat, 22 Sep 2012 5:51 pm

Perhaps the OP left a door open but these LL need some pushing around too. I have zero sympathy for his complaints - he's pulling in 5k+, making a good ROI and will probably end up with a free in ground pool.

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Post by Brah » Sun, 23 Sep 2012 11:32 am

As I just saw this thread now and the OP deleted his OP I can only guess much of the content.

It appears a bit like a situation at our condo a few years back. We moved in knowing full well there would be pool construction, and in fact leveraged that for a reduced rent rate.

But many agents misled by omission that this was to happen, and many new tenants, especially those with children, were understandable angry to learn about it only after moving in. The bloodsucking leeches that are many agents knew damn well this would happen. The LLs of course do as well, but it's arguable what the LL knows what the agents are telling their tenants.

What exacerbated this was that, as with many things, the construction was delayed and took much longer to complete than advertised.

Many of these new tenants banded together and were able to get out of their leases and moved to different condos. Good on 'em.


BTW - Shouldn't this thread be moved out of GD and into LIS?

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Post by nutnut » Sun, 23 Sep 2012 3:12 pm

Oh man! Why do people remove their original posts? I'm going to start quoting the original posts whenever I add a reply now, so at least when I go back to the post, I know what it's about!

Thanks OP, obliterate the knowledge base, why do you ask for help and not allow others to benefit from it? Do you think people are here to just assist you? tututut :mad: :mad:
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 23 Sep 2012 5:01 pm

I think from now on, we need to quote the OP's first post and any additional posts from the OP (at least the response immediately follow any of OP's posts so as to not create this type of BS. We seem to be getting a lot of Arseholes lately. Maybe it's because of tensions here between the locals and foreigners or just luck of the draw.

This is, of course, mainly for those thread starters with problems. Not just general inquiries types unless the thread starts to get fleshed out.

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Post by x9200 » Sun, 23 Sep 2012 8:15 pm

Recovered and added to my post too as I did not ban her.

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Post by the lynx » Sun, 23 Sep 2012 9:52 pm

nutnut wrote:Oh man! Why do people remove their original posts? I'm going to start quoting the original posts whenever I add a reply now, so at least when I go back to the post, I know what it's about!

Thanks OP, obliterate the knowledge base, why do you ask for help and not allow others to benefit from it? Do you think people are here to just assist you? tututut :mad: :mad:
And that is why I started quoting original posts in my replies for the last few months. Figured that it was handy especially after one particular incident where the effing poster deleted her first post in a thread after much advice has poured in from all of us (me included).

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Post by ScoobyDoes » Mon, 24 Sep 2012 10:31 am

nutnut wrote: Thanks OP, obliterate the knowledge base, why do you ask for help and not allow others to benefit from it? Do you think people are here to just assist you? tututut :mad: :mad:

Obviously didn't get the answer they expected/wanted. :P
'When Lewis Hamilton wins a race he has to thank Vodafone whereas in my day I used to chase the crumpet. I know which era I'd rather race in.'

SIR Stirling Moss OBE

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