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Dual citizenship issue

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Mad Scientist
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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:47 am

sensei_ wrote:
It would be naive to think that the thought didnt cross his mind. I just finished with a thread in an australian forum where a m'sian wanted to keep both citizenship too. like singapore malaysia doesnt allow for dual, and the OP in the other forum wanted to have the best of both worlds by having a subsidised degree at the australian expense, but the freedom to go back to malaysia should it be required.

if i were the OP, i would be contacting an australian migration lawyer, who can advise on an ex citizen visa (or something to that!)


I tend to agree with you on this though I do not condone nor approve of illegal means which is wrong and it will caught up with you later in life. Malaysian will have a much chance to fly under the radar compare to Sger. I had one from this forum whom did just that and SG ICA found out after he regained his renounced foreign citizenship after completing NS.
SG citizenship issue is a Constitution one not a guideline hence it is set in stone.
OZ lawyer will not cut out or else my boys would have that easy way out although I never regret making that choice of renouncing my boys SG citizenship as the choices as on Ozzie far outweigh keeping SG citizenship if you want your children to have the world to be their centre stage.
OP, there is cut off date which you have to make. If you let ICA does it for you , it will have a blot on your file though it will not have any criminal impllication, it will may affect you coming back under EP pass.
Do it cleanly and do not burn bridges as you never know what future holds.
BTW your thoughts are nothing new and it does not affect SG stance on this or else we would have gone away with it years before you are even born !!
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby taxico » Sun, 16 Sep 2012 2:08 pm

kev0 wrote:I dont have much of a choice. Either I break the law and try to fly under the radar ( which is unlikely as Singapore already knows of my Australian citizenship) or give up my Australian citizenship, reapply for my university course and pay a bomb as a foreign student.


you've omitted another option: give up singapore citizenship.

kev0 wrote:I just dont understand why Singapore cant allow dual citizenship in my case. I know part of the main reason is because Singapore is small and dont want citizens having dual allegiances but I think in my case it would actually be beneficial for Singapore in the long run, especially since Singapore is aiming to become more global.

Theres always a big possibility of citizens who have emigrated to return to their home country and contribute via skills or experiences gained from their time overseas. Plus I have already served my country for 2 years so what does the country lose by letting me keep dual citizenship?


i assume you were an enlisted man during NS? what the government deems to be legal and strategic reasons for disallowing dual citizenships does not have to mesh with other people's/your personal reasons for wanting dual citizenship.

BUT bear in mind that the things you've outlined above are re-visited from time to time by the government.

kev0 wrote:It is as if Singapore doesn't value or trust its citizens enough to let them off the leash.


we know what singaporeans are like. the government does too. (re: allegiance & "chow kuan" singaporeans)

kev0 wrote:I know everyone is saying how hard it is to get a Singapore citizenship, but as it stands, I am favoring my Australian citizenship. I moved over when I was 11 so most of my "present" life is over there not to mention my immediate family and close friends.


being bitter, angry and irrational will not help you. you need to think it through with a clear and level head.

you must pay heed to the last 3 sentences in mad's post (above this reply).

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Re: Dual citizenship issue

Postby teletraan1 » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 7:50 am

Go back to Australia and renounce your Australian citizenship while onshore. Immigration will then grant you a former citizen's visa. This is essentially a permanent visa which allows you to remain in Australia indefinitely but does not allow you to re-enter Australia. If you need to travel, you will need to apply for a Resident return Visa. See http://www.citizenship.gov.au/current/travel/ under the section "Travel after Australian citizenship has ceased". The only issue for you that I see if you go down this route is that you will lose the privilege of deferring the payment of your tertiary education fees under FEE-HELP. This facility is only available to citizens as well as the holders of humanitarian visas. You will still qualify to pay fees at local student rates but will have to pay them upfront. I think this is the closest you can get to having your cake and eating it. Good luck.

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Postby teletraan1 » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 8:06 am

I should also add that under the citizenship rules, you have the right to reclaim your Australian citizenship at any time after renunciation, subject to passing the good character test.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 8:22 am

teletraan1 wrote:I should also add that under the citizenship rules, you have the right to reclaim your Australian citizenship at any time after renunciation, subject to passing the good character test.


Will the Australian govt. inform the Singapore govt. if the OP does this?

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Postby teletraan1 » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 8:50 am

As far as I know, they do not. I think I should state for the record that I did not mean to suggest that OP reclaims his Australian citizenship immediately after informing ICA that he has renounced his Australian citizenship. That in itself is not wrong as long as the OP then renounces his Singapore citizenship thereafter. However, if he does reclaim his citizenship while at the same time also retaining his Singaporean one, I imagine the ICA would not take very kindly to such a stunt if they ever found out. I just meant to point out that if at some point in the future, OP has established his life in Australia and hence has no further need to retain his Singapore citizenship, he can exercise his right to reclaim his Australian citizenship, subject also to him then renouncing his Singapore citizenship.
offshoreoildude wrote:
Will the Australian govt. inform the Singapore govt. if the OP does this?

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Postby offshoreoildude » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 9:38 am

teletraan1 wrote:As far as I know, they do not. I think I should state for the record that I did not mean to suggest that OP reclaims his Australian citizenship immediately after informing ICA that he has renounced his Australian citizenship. That in itself is not wrong as long as the OP then renounces his Singapore citizenship thereafter. However, if he does reclaim his citizenship while at the same time also retaining his Singaporean one, I imagine the ICA would not take very kindly to such a stunt if they ever found out. I just meant to point out that if at some point in the future, OP has established his life in Australia and hence has no further need to retain his Singapore citizenship, he can exercise his right to reclaim his Australian citizenship, subject also to him then renouncing his Singapore citizenship.
offshoreoildude wrote:
Will the Australian govt. inform the Singapore govt. if the OP does this?


Understood. When I lived in Perth in the late 90's the Singapore community had members who had illegal dual citizenship. The view of the most of them is that if they didn't want to cancel their Singapore citizenship and reclaim their CPF it was probably going to not be a problem. I personally think they're setting themselves up for a problem in the future - particularly as all sorts of regs and databases have been set up since.

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Postby teletraan1 » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:05 am

IMHO, if one is determined to remain as a Singaporean whilst at the same time living in Australia, it does not really make sense to go for Australian citizenship. This is because except in very few instances, the privileges one is entitled to being a permanent resident is the same as those entitled to being a citizen. Back when the fairy Ruddfather was dishing out wads of cash to every man, woman, child and his pet at the height of the GFC in 2009, PRs were even entitled to the same quantum of cash entitlements as citizens. So, it beggars belief why someone would subject him/herself to navigating through legal minefields just to have the privilege of holding a piece of paper and passport that proclaims he/she is a citizen of Australia.
offshoreoildude wrote:


Understood. When I lived in Perth in the late 90's the Singapore community had members who had illegal dual citizenship. The view of the most of them is that if they didn't want to cancel their Singapore citizenship and reclaim their CPF it was probably going to not be a problem. I personally think they're setting themselves up for a problem in the future - particularly as all sorts of regs and databases have been set up since.

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Postby offshoreoildude » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:47 am

teletraan1 wrote:IMHO, if one is determined to remain as a Singaporean whilst at the same time living in Australia, it does not really make sense to go for Australian citizenship. This is because except in very few instances, the privileges one is entitled to being a permanent resident is the same as those entitled to being a citizen. Back when the fairy Ruddfather was dishing out wads of cash to every man, woman, child and his pet at the height of the GFC in 2009, PRs were even entitled to the same quantum of cash entitlements as citizens. So, it beggars belief why someone would subject him/herself to navigating through legal minefields just to have the privilege of holding a piece of paper and passport that proclaims he/she is a citizen of Australia.
offshoreoildude wrote:


Understood. When I lived in Perth in the late 90's the Singapore community had members who had illegal dual citizenship. The view of the most of them is that if they didn't want to cancel their Singapore citizenship and reclaim their CPF it was probably going to not be a problem. I personally think they're setting themselves up for a problem in the future - particularly as all sorts of regs and databases have been set up since.


Except... that the RRV situation has been tightened up to the point where a PR doesn't dare leave Australia for any significant amount of time lest they lose the right to return.

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Postby kev0 » Mon, 17 Sep 2012 3:45 pm

Ok, thanks for all your suggestions. They don't exactly open that many options for me but are helpful regardless.

teletraan1 wrote:Go back to Australia and renounce your Australian citizenship while onshore. Immigration will then grant you a former citizen's visa. This is essentially a permanent visa which allows you to remain in Australia indefinitely but does not allow you to re-enter Australia. If you need to travel, you will need to apply for a Resident return Visa


I will consider this option, as long as I am allowed to stay in Australia indefinitely and are allowed local student rates, im set. It would be even better to apply PR after renouncing my Australian citizenship, but not sure if that is even possible.

I will write to ICA requesting for an extension on the date, as i still need more time to decide and consider other options.

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Postby timeskipper » Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:10 pm

kev0 wrote:Ok, thanks for all your suggestions. They don't exactly open that many options for me but are helpful regardless.

teletraan1 wrote:Go back to Australia and renounce your Australian citizenship while onshore. Immigration will then grant you a former citizen's visa. This is essentially a permanent visa which allows you to remain in Australia indefinitely but does not allow you to re-enter Australia. If you need to travel, you will need to apply for a Resident return Visa


I will consider this option, as long as I am allowed to stay in Australia indefinitely and are allowed local student rates, im set. It would be even better to apply PR after renouncing my Australian citizenship, but not sure if that is even possible.

I will write to ICA requesting for an extension on the date, as i still need more time to decide and consider other options.


Hi there,

I am sort of in a similar situation ...

May I please kindly ask have you made your decision and how is it ?

I believe that as long as you give up your Australian Citizenship and remain a PR there, you can always get back your Australian Citizenship anytime later in time ...

If I am not wrong, to remain a PR of Singapore, i.e. to renew your PR, you must either

1. show that you pay income tax,

2. show that you pay CPF

This means that you must be employed in Singapore in order for ICA to renew your Singapore PR.

:)

If I could I would like to take up dual citizenship too ...

How I wish that could happen ...

:(

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Postby Splatted » Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:09 pm

To the OP, I'd look into renouncing sg citizenship and see if it's possible to convert that to PR.

Rationale is that when renewing the Australian equivalent of a 'reentry permit' for PR's , you have to have lived in Australia for 2 out of the last 5 years, in order to get another 5 years.

My wife (who is an Australian PR) has only stayed 18 months as we had to leave early. Her dad had cancer back here in Singapore and we suddenly moved back here to be with him while he was still alive.

Now, realising we are short of 6 months.. it's going to be awfully disruptive if we have to give up our current jobs,... find temp work back in Australia to live 6 months,... then come back to Singapore after it's all renewed.

Sg PR re-entry permit , on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that 2 year residency requirement (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and is much easier to renew.

edit: having said all this, if you ask my wife, she still prefers to keep her sg citizenship, as it's a matter of national identity
Last edited by Splatted on Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby timeskipper » Mon, 24 Dec 2012 12:20 pm

Splatted wrote:To the OP, I'd look into renouncing sg citizenship and see if it's possible to convert that to PR.

Rationale is that when renewing the Australian equivalent of a 'reentry permit' for PR's , you have to have lived in Australia for 2 out of the last 5 years, in order to get another 5 years.

My wife (who is an Australian PR) has only stayed 18 months as we had to leave early. Her dad had cancer back here in Singapore and we suddenly moved back here to be with him while he was still alive.

Now, realising we are short of 6 months.. it's going to be awfully disruptive if we have to give up our current jobs,... find temp work back in Australia to live 6 months,... then come back to Singapore after it's all renewed.

Sg PR re-entry permit , on the other hand, doesn't seem to have that 2 year residency requirement (someone correct me if I'm wrong), and is much easier to renew.



If I am not wrong, once you lose your SG Citizenship, it is very very very hard to get it back or let alone get a PR. I heard rumors that is quite tough to get PR back. Almost non existent. The reason for this is that they want to discourage people from losing their SG Citizenship ...

I could be wrong, anyone can confirm this ?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 24 Dec 2012 2:05 pm

timeskipper wrote:If I am not wrong, once you lose your SG Citizenship, it is very very very hard to get it back or let alone get a PR. I heard rumors that is quite tough to get PR back. Almost non existent. The reason for this is that they want to discourage people from losing their SG Citizenship ...

I could be wrong, anyone can confirm this ?


Yes BIG YES !!!!
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 24 Dec 2012 2:36 pm

Very true unless you are really bringing something to the table that they desperately need. Like a cure for stupidity & lack of common sense. Or the cure for cancer or a drug to raise the TFR here.


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