Doesn't Harry like Indonesians?

[JayCee]

v4jr4, no, I wouldn't assume that at all. As you have already read, quota's have been chopped for both S passes AND WORK PERMITS. The Services sector has been chopped over all by 5 percent and the sub-quota for S pass holders has also been cut by 5%. The WP's are your low level workers. They are being reduced.

What is happening is that they are upping the levies to astronomical levels and cutting back the overall quotas. This will eventually lead to a point where it doesn't make any economic sense to bring in foreigner. Then, in order to get the picky locals to take up these jobs, the companies will be forced to pay a decent wage in order to get the local to accept it, even though it goes against the grain. The employers are the ones who get screwed as their costs go up, but their productivity doesn't, due to the shoddy work habits of locals and their constant just walking off the job. They employers will have no choice but to keep hiring locals as the gahmen continue to reduce the quotas.

This will keep up until a number of MNC shift their operations to Malaysia and/or Thailand because of labour costs. Then unemployment WILL make itself felt (it's been 0% for years - well 2% structural which is nothing). When that happens, the locals, the gahmen, Singapore......All screwed. The PAP will be voted out if they don't get rid of a lot of foreigners and when the MNCs start leaving because they cannot get manpower, they PAP will get voted out. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. The local population doesn't realize that as long as they have a decreasing fertility rate, it's going to get worse. It's coming, mark my words.

And the Philippines...they are coming on strong, decent education, entrepreneurial, they work in English, and are hungry to grow. I think they are going to surpass this tiny place in no time.

I don't see it, the crippling corruption is a major reason why the Philippines is behind most Asian countries nowadays, 50 years ago I'm reliably informed it was way ahead of Singapore, Malaysia etc... unless something major changes in that respect, it will remain one of the poorer nations. One paper though I agree, a large English-speaking, reasonably well-educated population should be doing well, it's just that the politicians there make the EU leadership look like the most competent and honest people on the planet!

[x9200]

Firstly, if your presence on this board was less incidental you would notice that there are hardly anybody from the regulars that questions the practicality of the SG government. So in general you brought in a heavy artillery to kill a non-existing target. Instead, what has been repeated here many times is that Singapore is an enterprise, well managed enterprise.
Secondly, your oldies saying is the same class as the modified one. It's a smart ass response that conveniently omits all the background factors leading to a success or a failure. I don't think anyone mature enough should be afraid and have problems answering it.
Lastly, OSD just mentioned there are people worth to be considered outside the current approach and you built up a theory around this sentence that IMHO has nothing to do with his intentions.

whatever floats your boat.

No need to turn like this. I will be happy to explain some more difficult parts, you just need to be a bit more specific.

[Strong Eagle]

v4jr4, no, I wouldn't assume that at all. As you have already read, quota's have been chopped for both S passes AND WORK PERMITS. The Services sector has been chopped over all by 5 percent and the sub-quota for S pass holders has also been cut by 5%. The WP's are your low level workers. They are being reduced.

What is happening is that they are upping the levies to astronomical levels and cutting back the overall quotas. This will eventually lead to a point where it doesn't make any economic sense to bring in foreigner. Then, in order to get the picky locals to take up these jobs, the companies will be forced to pay a decent wage in order to get the local to accept it, even though it goes against the grain. The employers are the ones who get screwed as their costs go up, but their productivity doesn't, due to the shoddy work habits of locals and their constant just walking off the job. They employers will have no choice but to keep hiring locals as the gahmen continue to reduce the quotas.

This will keep up until a number of MNC shift their operations to Malaysia and/or Thailand because of labour costs. Then unemployment WILL make itself felt (it's been 0% for years - well 2% structural which is nothing). When that happens, the locals, the gahmen, Singapore......All screwed. The PAP will be voted out if they don't get rid of a lot of foreigners and when the MNCs start leaving because they cannot get manpower, they PAP will get voted out. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. The local population doesn't realize that as long as they have a decreasing fertility rate, it's going to get worse. It's coming, mark my words.

And the Philippines...they are coming on strong, decent education, entrepreneurial, they work in English, and are hungry to grow. I think they are going to surpass this tiny place in no time.

I don't see it, the crippling corruption is a major reason why the Philippines is behind most Asian countries nowadays, 50 years ago I'm reliably informed it was way ahead of Singapore, Malaysia etc... unless something major changes in that respect, it will remain one of the poorer nations. One paper though I agree, a large English-speaking, reasonably well-educated population should be doing well, it's just that the politicians there make the EU leadership look like the most competent and honest people on the planet!

It's corruption... and another issue... Filipinos are just too nice. I mean, introducing real accountability into a management structure.

One of many examples that I've come across over the years. It's a Manila based service desk. Client is a large MNC within offices from ANZ to India.

Australians are complaining bitterly that no one answers the phone. Finally, I fly to Manila. I get up so that I can be at the call center at 4:30 in the morning (Australia start of business, 3 hours ahead).

There are supposed to be two ANZ agents... there are none. There is one overnight agent, a dear. I ask her, "the ANZ agents are not here. Have you reported this?" No, she says... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

I meet with the service desk manager. I ask him if he has reviewed the telephony login logs. Yes, he says. Then, I says, you must know the ANZ agents have not been at work, else you would have seen their logins.

Yes, he says, they are not logging in... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

And folks, this is the essence of the issue for me. Great people, gentle people, and so hard to enforce accountability, so hard to get someone to kick another in the balls when it is so richly deserved.

I can't say much about other aspects of Philippine employment, but I can say that it seriously affects the ability to create a premium product when the deficient are not being weeded out by managers who don't want to offend or get someone in trouble.

[zzm9980]

One of many examples that I've come across over the years. It's a Manila based service desk. Client is a large MNC within offices from ANZ to India.

Australians are complaining bitterly that no one answers the phone. Finally, I fly to Manila. I get up so that I can be at the call center at 4:30 in the morning (Australia start of business, 3 hours ahead).

There are supposed to be two ANZ agents... there are none. There is one overnight agent, a dear. I ask her, "the ANZ agents are not here. Have you reported this?" No, she says... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

I meet with the service desk manager. I ask him if he has reviewed the telephony login logs. Yes, he says. Then, I says, you must know the ANZ agents have not been at work, else you would have seen their logins.

Yes, he says, they are not logging in... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

And folks, this is the essence of the issue for me. Great people, gentle people, and so hard to enforce accountability, so hard to get someone to kick another in the balls when it is so richly deserved.

I can't say much about other aspects of Philippine employment, but I can say that it seriously affects the ability to create a premium product when the deficient are not being weeded out by managers who don't want to offend or get someone in trouble.

Wow, sounds worse than my experiences with our Indian ODCs. We show up to an ODC with a headcount of ~500. As of 2pm, only ~325 had badged in that day. Where are the rest we ask? After an hour of scurring, management can only find leave records for about 30. ~130+ are on "unplanned leave", and just not showing up. See I just chalked it up to them trying to rip us off and over-charge, not people being too nice and covering for each other.

[the lynx]

Wow, sounds worse than my experiences with our Indian ODCs. We show up to an ODC with a headcount of ~500. As of 2pm, only ~325 had badged in that day. Where are the rest we ask? After an hour of scurring, management can only find leave records for about 30. ~130+ are on "unplanned leave", and just not showing up. See I just chalked it up to them trying to rip us off and over-charge, not people being too nice and covering for each other.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is an ODC?

[x9200]

But isn't it to some extent similar also in SG? Firing someone for disciplinary reasons is very rare. Probably that's why so many services suck here so badly.

[zzm9980]

Wow, sounds worse than my experiences with our Indian ODCs. We show up to an ODC with a headcount of ~500. As of 2pm, only ~325 had badged in that day. Where are the rest we ask? After an hour of scurring, management can only find leave records for about 30. ~130+ are on "unplanned leave", and just not showing up. See I just chalked it up to them trying to rip us off and over-charge, not people being too nice and covering for each other.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is an ODC?

No, I'm sorry. I realize it wouldn't be a familiar term to anyone who isn't involved in outsourcing.

ODC = Offshore/Outsourced Development Center

When you outsource a portion of your operations to a big Indian firm, they setup an ODC for you. Basically it is the physical location(s) inside their company where "your" employees all sit. A lot of these companies will have these giant campuses with multiple buildings, and each floor of each building will usually be subdivided into these ODCs, maybe two-six of them per floor. You'll just walk down a hall and see all of these cubicles behind glass windows locked in behind badge-controlled doors. Each of these is like a "mini-outpost" for the company they're outsourced too. Occasionally they'll have shared ones, where multiple companies mingle, but most banks and MNCs don't allow that.

[the lynx]

Wow, sounds worse than my experiences with our Indian ODCs. We show up to an ODC with a headcount of ~500. As of 2pm, only ~325 had badged in that day. Where are the rest we ask? After an hour of scurring, management can only find leave records for about 30. ~130+ are on "unplanned leave", and just not showing up. See I just chalked it up to them trying to rip us off and over-charge, not people being too nice and covering for each other.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is an ODC?

No, I'm sorry. I realize it wouldn't be a familiar term to anyone who isn't involved in outsourcing.

ODC = Offshore/Outsourced Development Center

When you outsource a portion of your operations to a big Indian firm, they setup an ODC for you. Basically it is the physical location(s) inside their company where "your" employees all sit. A lot of these companies will have these giant campuses with multiple buildings, and each floor of each building will usually be subdivided into these ODCs, maybe two-six of them per floor. You'll just walk down a hall and see all of these cubicles behind glass windows locked in behind badge-controlled doors. Each of these is like a "mini-outpost" for the company they're outsourced too. Occasionally they'll have shared ones, where multiple companies mingle, but most banks and MNCs don't allow that.

Ah, I've always known of such operations but never knew it was called ODC Thanks.

[ecureilx]

...
It's corruption... and another issue... Filipinos are just too nice. I mean, introducing real accountability into a management structure. ...

+1 !!!!

[JayCee]

And the Philippines...they are coming on strong, decent education, entrepreneurial, they work in English, and are hungry to grow. I think they are going to surpass this tiny place in no time.

I don't see it, the crippling corruption is a major reason why the Philippines is behind most Asian countries nowadays, 50 years ago I'm reliably informed it was way ahead of Singapore, Malaysia etc... unless something major changes in that respect, it will remain one of the poorer nations. One paper though I agree, a large English-speaking, reasonably well-educated population should be doing well, it's just that the politicians there make the EU leadership look like the most competent and honest people on the planet!

It's corruption... and another issue... Filipinos are just too nice. I mean, introducing real accountability into a management structure.

One of many examples that I've come across over the years. It's a Manila based service desk. Client is a large MNC within offices from ANZ to India.

Australians are complaining bitterly that no one answers the phone. Finally, I fly to Manila. I get up so that I can be at the call center at 4:30 in the morning (Australia start of business, 3 hours ahead).

There are supposed to be two ANZ agents... there are none. There is one overnight agent, a dear. I ask her, "the ANZ agents are not here. Have you reported this?" No, she says... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

I meet with the service desk manager. I ask him if he has reviewed the telephony login logs. Yes, he says. Then, I says, you must know the ANZ agents have not been at work, else you would have seen their logins.

Yes, he says, they are not logging in... I didn't want to get anyone in trouble.

And folks, this is the essence of the issue for me. Great people, gentle people, and so hard to enforce accountability, so hard to get someone to kick another in the balls when it is so richly deserved.

I can't say much about other aspects of Philippine employment, but I can say that it seriously affects the ability to create a premium product when the deficient are not being weeded out by managers who don't want to offend or get someone in trouble.

That's a good point. Here in Singapore I notice that in the places I've worked in, the filipino workers tend to be very friendly with each other, usually all go out together for lunch, go out for breaks together around 5pm. There's not much interaction with other groups socially, generally they stick together (nothing wrong with that as birds of a feather etc...)

I don't see this level of 'comraderie' amongst the other groups, indeed for the largest group (Indian - take a wild guess what kind of job I do) I get the impression that they would kick eachother's grandparents onto the street if it would get them a payrise or promotion.

[sundaymorningstaple]

....indeed for the largest group (Indian - take a wild guess what kind of job I do) I get the impression that they would kick eachother's grandparents onto the street if it would get them a payrise or promotion.

In every other industry the Chinese are exactly the same way.

[ecureilx]

That's a good point. Here in Singapore I notice that in the places I've worked in, the filipino workers tend to be very friendly with each other, usually all go out together for lunch, go out for breaks together around 5pm. There's not much interaction with other groups socially, generally they stick together (nothing wrong with that as birds of a feather etc...)

I don't see this level of 'comraderie' amongst the other groups, indeed for the largest group (Indian - take a wild guess what kind of job I do) I get the impression that they would kick eachother's grandparents onto the street if it would get them a payrise or promotion.

Yah, but sometimes, the cameraderie gets dirty .. like Strong Eagle mentioned

Some time ago, I tried to report a problem with a service, and the call center person, when she found out the complaint was about a 'fellow citizen' tried to not lodge the complaint and very clearly refusing to admit the mistake.

And when I insisted that she escalate her next level person had been breifed very well, she too refused to lodge the complaint ..

On and an on it went up to 4 levels up, and I gave up.

Wrote a complaint letter, the old fashioned way, and a 'non-citizen' of the person involved called back within 3 days, and was very apolegetic and insisted I provide more details .. and when I asked whether the whole gang will be advised to show more professionalism, the answer was startling .. 'well, we cannot do much, all the above people are outsourced and not in Singapore .. we know, but our management does the dollar and cents and the cheaper staff come out winners .. ' or he too admitted ..

And by that time, my temper had gone down to negative numbers, and was in no mood to fight it out or 'fix' the people .. if I could ..

No offense to anybody .. but .. well... after paying 240 $ for the service that's what I got, from a Semi-Govt agency in Singapore ..

[v4jr4]

....indeed for the largest group (Indian - take a wild guess what kind of job I do) I get the impression that they would kick eachother's grandparents onto the street if it would get them a payrise or promotion.

In every other industry the Chinese are exactly the same way.

+1!

[nakatago]

I'm guessing some people are waiting for my reaction.

• * Yes, the tribe mentality kinda gets in the way. But from what I gather, it's similar with Indians. That's why a lot of Filipinos dislike Indians--they see so much of them in them. I have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
  
  * Most Filipinos value sentimentality over what's right. It's freakin' annoying, especially if they're taking advantage of the kinship bordering on abuse and exploitation.
  
  * "We stick together" only works if they see you as one of them. Filipinos, however, have no problems throwing another Filipino under a bus if they perceive him as different. This also happens a lot in other countries when relationships go south. That's how most Filipino illegal immigrants get caught--they stick together as fellow TNTs ("tago nang tago"--always hiding because they're illegal) until they have a disagreement and one of them tips off immigration officers.
  
  * Filipinos don't take individuality from other Filipinos very well. Unless your very good looking, you'll be perceived as weird and should be avoided. NB: They make leeway for foreign-born/half-foreign Filipinos and rationalize them by "oh, he was raised in a different environment." But if you're born, bred and raised in the Philippines and you act different? You're a deviant, a pariah and a general bad person.

As you can see, I don't go to "must defend my own kind at all costs!" mode. If it's worth calling out, I will...

...unless I'm too lazy to do so.

[Strong Eagle]

* Most Filipinos value sentimentality over what's right. It's freakin' annoying, especially if they're taking advantage of the kinship bordering on abuse and exploitation.

Interesting that you mention this. My wife volunteers at aidha, teaching maids how to manage finance. She hears many stories of relatives back in the Philippines DEMANDING money from the working maid. My friend's maid didn't want to go back to visit family because all they did was pressure her for more money... even though she bought land, built a house that they are using.