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JR8
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Post by JR8 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 5:19 pm

x9200 wrote:I think it is not entirely correct.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sid ... port-dsm-5
"DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure."

That's the whole problem. Also these symptoms are also often judged subjectively and the symptoms are not unique to a specific disorder.
If the case is obvious then there is no doubt of course but then again typically you don't need a systematic test to make a conclusion. If it is less obvious DSM may not help at all.
I suppose one could question a subjects perceptions. But I'm not sure how it differs from me reaching a judgement about the cliched sweaty Chinese chef who is running towards me wielding a cleaver, just because I criticised his cooking.

I found DSM-IV immediately useful, and later and more broadly enlightening. I recall at the time thinking it is something all young adults should be made aware of, in something like a 'General Studies' class at school. Rather than the PD's being something '''no one really talks about as it's a bit weird''' that comes and slams you out of the blue in later life...

p.s. I'll be as bold as to say that I am confident that everyone that reads this topic knows or has known someone who has a diagnosable PD; however, they might not have the context to understand this persons behaviour. For me, when I first read DSM-IV, it was like a shovel-in-the-face epiphany... nothing less.

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Post by x9200 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 6:12 pm

It is a good thing to study if somebody has the curiosity but I doubt if this has any serious diagnostic or self learning value for an individual (it is not a diagnostic tool anyway).

Example as of this thread, part of DSM-V on ASD criteria:

A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive, see text):

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.

3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative paly or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.
It is clear that the person using it has to have LOADS of experience to make any sense of such criteria. I have no problem to comprehend the text but I am just not able to assign any quantitative elements (weightage). It is just full of subjective and vague statements or indicators. How an individual who typically knows a single case can make here any judgement? Also, for a self assessment/learning, it provides enhanced insight but lacks at the same time out-of-the-box perspective - one may think he has symptoms but in reality he has not.

I really believe you have to be a professional (a good one) or highly advanced in this subject to use it meaningfully and as intended.

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Post by JR8 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 6:56 pm

x9200 wrote:It is a good thing to study if somebody has the curiosity but I doubt if this has any serious diagnostic or self learning value for an individual
Well, either people wish and try to understand their circumstances or they don't. Perhaps WebMD or NHSDirect should be taken down?

Meanwhile ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DSM5
x9200 wrote:(it is not a diagnostic tool anyway).
Er, well the D in DSM5 stands for diagnostic. And DSM5 is what psychologists use to clinically diagnose personality disorders.

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Post by x9200 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 7:32 pm

I am very sure 99% of the wannabies would think they understood but they didn't.
IIRC in another thread you questioned book based (uni based) education glorifying the experience and learning through practice. Now you are saying you can learn clinical psychology based on books without seeing a sufficient number of patients. Interesting.

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Post by x9200 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 7:43 pm

JR8 wrote:Er, well the D in DSM5 stands for diagnostic. And DSM5 is what psychologists use to clinically diagnose personality disorders.
These are just general diagnostic criteria. AFAIK the diagnosis is typically made based on tests following these criteria (unless something is extremely obvious). For example, for the said ASD it can be ADOS.
Of course the whole assessment includes more then this.
Last edited by x9200 on Fri, 27 Dec 2013 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JR8 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 7:50 pm

x9200 wrote:I am very sure 99% of the wannabies would think they understood but they didn't..
So should Wikipedia be zapped too, as most people are too stupid to understand it? Where should the line be drawn?
x9200 wrote:IIRC in another thread you questioned book based (uni based) education glorifying the experience and learning through practice. Now you are saying you can learn clinical psychology based on books without seeing a sufficient number of patients. Interesting.
It would be simpler, for the sake of discussion, to quote me, if you wish to attack my suggested beliefs.

But yes, I regard university in the UK, a complete waste of time (a loss, a lifetime loss) for 75% of students. Compare the employability of the person who has spent 5 years doing a BA and MA in History of Art from the 'University of Upminster (or Jurong)', versus the one who has been 5 years on the job. Who would you hire? For many tertiary edu in the UK has become a lifestyle of those not mature enough to go out and grab adult life by the throat.

I am NOT suggesting you can learn 'clinical psychology from books'. You said that, and not me.
But I'll diagnose that comment as bonkers lol! :-D

Should everything but direct experience be taken down? Wikipedia, this site, the bible ... hahaha... :lol:

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Post by x9200 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 8:14 pm

I believe all the mentioned (WebMed, NHSDirect, Wikipedia etc) are for the patients/general audience. DSM is for professionals. The difference: first include basic data necessary to understand topics on basic level; 2nd, does not, making assumption the reader has the professional knowledge to comprehend it as intended but the authors.

The bonkers part. You did not say it explicitly of course but from practical POV this is what is going to be. How can you gain practical experience being an amateur in such field?

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Post by JR8 » Fri, 27 Dec 2013 8:41 pm

I first came upon DSM-4 via Yahoo/Health. A widely available and accessed resource. That was the starting point. Later I dug deeper.

A psychiatrist suggested I look there. Later I found http://www.bpdcentral.com/ that really joined the dots for me. It really allowed me to take my life back. Some people might ask ... wha'ever. But the fact I'm here today and alive is all the testament I need.

I've subsequently seen a few other people mixed up with 'PD' situations, and they just have no idea, amongst the emotional chaos what is going on...

As I inferred earlier. I think DSM-4/5 is something that children at school should get a few hours on, in say a General Studies class. I wish aside my innocent country upbringing, I had been more aware of the ... challenging personalities, nay weirdos, 'bad people' I might potentially meet in later life. As a child I had no conception of 'not 100% normal/nice/trustworthy'... hehe ... there we go ...

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