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Choosing a Race

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Postby v4jr4 » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:47 am

the lynx wrote:
Brah wrote:There's always going to be those kinds of people who use those words, and we can't do much about it but at least we know where they are coming from.

While those are obvious and ugly slurs, Ang Moh is used pretty flippantly and quite often unblinkingly right to one's face.

Passing off a label, which many on this forum have said was not considered a slur, and it having this full meaning behind it revealed, really puts that stance in a very different, and shocking, light.

At least that what I think I'm getting from this info which is new to me.


Sorry for shattering the glass for explaining the real meaning of that. And like I mentioned, I was saying as a matter-of-fact.

The thing about slurs is that it always started as an innocent attempt by the uneducated locals (of a specific location) to perceive and identify foreigners whom they would have not otherwise see in their entire lifetime if it wasn't for globalisation and mass media.

Of course times have changed, but the uneducated ones (being unable to grasp the concept of identification by country/nationality instead of racial slurs) don't seem to understand that it is time to change that too.


Sometimes, I feel that the educated ones are thinking too much. On my circle, the uneducated ones don't really mean it, and they don't understand what's the impact until someone shout it out loud. It's even worse (at least for me) to hear someone saying "You're an autistic" to someone who's a little bit busy with his/her gadget.

So, if I don't like it, I just shout it :P
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Postby sensei_ » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 6:57 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:These words would be considered highly derogatory in the US, along with chink, gook, slanty eyed people, ching chong you referenced in your other post. All of these names are considered derogatory.

I don't know where you are getting your information but most Australians I know are well aware that the names you posted are derogatory and would not use them.

Racists use those terms. Bigots use those terms. Ignorant fools use those terms. They are not appropriate in today's society.


yeah plenty of those in australia (from what i see!). ive even overheard managers (who were supposed to be professionals) saying those terms. to me, i no longer care, i try to avoid those terms myself unless im trying to make a very strong point.

there are always idiots around, and we cannot try to educate idiots otherwise we become one of them too.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 7:14 pm

sensei_ wrote:there are always idiots around, and we cannot try to educate idiots otherwise we become one of them too.

I think we can try to 'educate' idiots who think it's OK to use racist language, or at the very least we can let them know that we don't consider it acceptable (rather than just saying nothing, an implicit acceptance of their behaviour). And I don't see why that would lead to becoming 'one of them'.
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Postby Brah » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 8:17 pm

By saying this you've missed the point. Again.

I'm saying there will always be racists, bigots, misogynists, and other misguided people in all countries of all races, creeds and colors who choose to see things in that polarized way and use those divisional and ignorant words for people unlike themselves.

And I'm sure there are Singaporean and Malaysians who hold contempt for Westerners and in doing so, mislead themselves into lumping all White people as if they are some kind of collective unconscious, which couldn't be further from the truth, and those are the people who use those 'monkey' racist slurs against Caucasians.

But I'm not talking about those. And you seem to be confusing that with what I am talking about.

I'm talking about the everyday Singaporean or Malaysian for who the term "Ang Moh" effortlessly falls out of their mouths, on a regular basis, and regardless if a Westerner is within earshot or is the person they are speaking to.

At its least it's a passive-aggressiveness levied against foreigners, at the most it's a blatant lack of regard for people not like themselves, with no consideration for the effect that ridiculous label has on them.

And it's a Chinese thing, as I don't hear this from other races. And I don't know f it's to the same, lesser, or greater level than it is in Hong Kong where instead of being called Red Haired Monkeys, Caucasians are called White Devils, and I don't know which of the two terms, to the Chinese mind, is more caustic.

But they both kinda suck if you're a Caucasian hearing it from coworkers, neighbors and the like.



sensei_ wrote:to me no big deal afterall, countries use all sorts of names to describe people who are foreign to them.

and its not limited to asians either. we have "nigger" to describe the blacks, "coons" to describe indigenous australians, "ranga" for the redheads, etc

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Postby Brah » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 8:33 pm

First you say "orang utans are soooooo adorable!" as if that justifies the slur, and "there is nothing derogatory in calling someone a person from the forest so nothing pejorative in Angmoh" - in a manner that is both dismissive and permissive.

The you go on to say it was matter of fact.

So Lynx, have you ever called or referred to Caucasians "Ang Moh Kau"?

To be honest I'm not sure what side of the fence you're on Lynx as you're playing both sides, and I sense you're backtracking. Maybe I'm wrong on that. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

the lynx wrote:Sorry for shattering the glass for explaining the real meaning of that. And like I mentioned, I was saying as a matter-of-fact.

The thing about slurs is that it always started as an innocent attempt by the uneducated locals (of a specific location) to perceive and identify foreigners whom they would have not otherwise see in their entire lifetime if it wasn't for globalisation and mass media..

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Postby Brah » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 8:42 pm

V4, this makes sense. And I get it. And I got it a long time ago, way before we even breached this subject on this forum some time ago. And I do agree with you and also your approach to it.

The point I made then is the point I make now - educated or uneducated, that does not excuse it. Especially if the educated stand idly by as it happens, condoning it in the process.

It's the same thing with these idiots for parents who bring their kids to the movies and allow them to speak at normal talking volume and throughout the entire movie (as happened yet again a couple of weeks ago).

Because the kids are not properly parented does not excuse their behavior nor is it fair to the rest of the well-behaved customers.

There is something endemic that allows this as permissible and so it continues. Not unlike the unspoken and rampant racism which is alive and well in The Little Red Dot.

As long as the masses continue to need Kindness and other campaigns which don't work to teach them how to be better humans, this kind of thing will prevail.

v4jr4 wrote:Sometimes, I feel that the educated ones are thinking too much. On my circle, the uneducated ones don't really mean it, and they don't understand what's the impact until someone shout it out loud.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 8:52 pm

This discussion crops up like a bad penny every so often. Don't know why exactly. The last time it was complete with every know variable and the different tonal qualities and different inflections, degree of insult, historical versions, and so forth. Some, to this day, take it as an affront, others take it depending on the tone of voice/context it's used in. I'm not sure but for myself, I can't remember hearing anybody using the term Ang Moh Kau. I've only ever heard Ang Moh. Often it's a slur, but I think it's more a simpler explanation in so much as Caucasian is a mouthful in a language that is reduced to shorter is better. I've heard it used more as a friendly nickname that identifies me in a crowd as well as a slur in a barroom when some locals get too much firewater in them. Are we any different?

Personally, I think lynx is trying to educate. Dog knows some of us need it on occasion. Habits in Asia are different than in the West, I've been here over 30 and still stick my foot in it occasionally. I try to roll with the punches as I can't expect Asians to think like PC westerners. I just use my good judgement as to whether to take offense or not. :-|

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Postby Brah » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 8:57 pm

I do tend to agree with you. My premise was more around is "Ang Moh" in reality for insiders, really an unspoken shortcut for "Ang Moh Kau"?


sundaymorningstaple wrote:I'm not sure but for myself, I can't remember hearing anybody using the term Ang Moh Kau. I've only ever heard Ang Moh. Often it's a slur, but I think it's more a simpler explanation in so much as Caucasian is a mouthful


Know this ground has been covered before with a largely different audience, and am not trying to stir things up, but also can't sit idly by reading some of this stuff.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 9:59 pm

Brah wrote:I'm talking about the everyday Singaporean or Malaysian for who the term "Ang Moh" effortlessly falls out of their mouths, on a regular basis, and regardless if a Westerner is within earshot or is the person they are speaking to.

At its least it's a passive-aggressiveness levied against foreigners, at the most it's a blatant lack of regard for people not like themselves, with no consideration for the effect that ridiculous label has on them.

But do you or better say we actually know what emotional load it carries for them? You judge them at this point only by the literal meaning of this phrase but in reality it could be pretty neutral.

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Postby the lynx » Thu, 06 Sep 2012 10:36 pm

Brah,

Somehow I'm sensing that you're putting me in a spot here, all because I was telling the situation as it is. Had I not revealed how the phrase came to be, would you have known about it already? My advantage is that I know Hokkien and I'm sharing here for everyone to understand. So please do not shoot the messenger.

And that orang-utan-is-adorable line was to respond to x92's opinion that orang-utans have nothing derogatory in them. And the direction of that conversation is hence, off already.

I was explaining further on from my perspective how (slurs) here came to be, and nothing in my posts here condone such action. As other posters already noted, it is a matter of educating them and breaking them out of the pattern.

Thanks for your benefit of doubt, nevertheless. At least we all know we are discussing this on a level ground.

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Postby sensei_ » Fri, 07 Sep 2012 7:57 am

Brah wrote:By saying this you've missed the point. Again.
...

And I'm sure there are Singaporean and Malaysians who hold contempt for Westerners and in doing so, mislead themselves into lumping all White people as if they are some kind of collective unconscious, which couldn't be further from the truth, and those are the people who use those 'monkey' racist slurs against Caucasians.

But I'm not talking about those. And you seem to be confusing that with what I am talking about.

I'm talking about the everyday Singaporean or Malaysian for who the term "Ang Moh" effortlessly falls out of their mouths, on a regular basis, and regardless if a Westerner is within earshot or is the person they are speaking to.

At its least it's a passive-aggressiveness levied against foreigners, at the most it's a blatant lack of regard for people not like themselves, with no consideration for the effect that ridiculous label has on them.

And it's a Chinese thing, as I don't hear this from other races. And I don't know f it's to the same, lesser, or greater level than it is in Hong Kong where instead of being called Red Haired Monkeys, Caucasians are called White Devils, and I don't know which of the two terms, to the Chinese mind, is more caustic.

But they both kinda suck if you're a Caucasian hearing it from coworkers, neighbors and the like.


Of course not everyone is going to get along with each other. And therefore will hold contempt towards a group of people. just like westerners cannot differentiate between asians, the asians cannot differentiate between westerners, so having a name and lumping them together is only natural.

i have a strong dislike for mainland europeans initially (because of the rude french). why? because to me, the europeans looked the same, dressed the same, spoke the same to a degree.

i also dislike a certain type of australian, one that tends to have the australian star arrangement on their ankles or have a sticker saying "f*ck off we're full!" on their car, and typically they dress a certain style. again i hear you ask why? because ive had bad experiences with them.

im sure there are the good, bad and ugly out there, and maybe it was unfortunate that some of the locals met the bad and ugly before meeting the good.

If you feel so bad about it, maybe you are being oversensitive. because at the end of the day, its just a name. sure its not a very nice one, but everyone cops it when they are in a foreign land. hell, some cop it in their own land.

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Postby v4jr4 » Fri, 07 Sep 2012 11:08 am

Brah wrote:V4, this makes sense. And I get it. And I got it a long time ago, way before we even breached this subject on this forum some time ago. And I do agree with you and also your approach to it.

The point I made then is the point I make now - educated or uneducated, that does not excuse it. Especially if the educated stand idly by as it happens, condoning it in the process.

It's the same thing with these idiots for parents who bring their kids to the movies and allow them to speak at normal talking volume and throughout the entire movie (as happened yet again a couple of weeks ago).

Because the kids are not properly parented does not excuse their behavior nor is it fair to the rest of the well-behaved customers.

There is something endemic that allows this as permissible and so it continues. Not unlike the unspoken and rampant racism which is alive and well in The Little Red Dot.

As long as the masses continue to need Kindness and other campaigns which don't work to teach them how to be better humans, this kind of thing will prevail.

v4jr4 wrote:Sometimes, I feel that the educated ones are thinking too much. On my circle, the uneducated ones don't really mean it, and they don't understand what's the impact until someone shout it out loud.


Yep. That's why I prefer to shout it out loud if I don't feel like it :D

Well, it's kinda different if you do it with your close friends. Like, for example, silly nicknames, or using race (for example, a friend called me a Chinese (or in bahasa, "Cina lo!"), and I just replied "Jawa lo!" (cause he's a Javanese), and both of us don't mind (we're laughing instead). But it will be dangerous if we use it to someone not-so-close.

Slangs in Hokkien may be too "straightforward", and some people may not like to hear it. Personal preference tho. I don't mind it only if the other person can accept I use the slang back to him/her. If he/she feels offended, I'll just state "Cause you do it to me, and I simply give it back to you." (again, personal preference) :P

That's why, educated or not, I believe "counter attack" or "friendly fire" is kinda important. If he/she wants to attack but doesn't want to accept the counter attack, then I don't have to bother him/her :P
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Postby zzm9980 » Fri, 07 Sep 2012 11:23 am

The amount of emo in this thread over "racism" against the white man is amazing. Tell me Brah, do you really feel disadvantaged in Asia because of your skin color?

Brah wrote:To be honest I'm not sure what side of the fence you're on Lynx as you're playing both sides, and I sense you're backtracking.


And to somehow read any kind of ill-intent into what Lynx posted is even more mind-boggling. Just judging by her from the forum, I'd bet a paycheck she isn't one of the aunties calling you a red haired monkey on the MRT behind your back during the commute to/from your skin-color challenged daily existence in this little red dot :)

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Postby beppi » Fri, 07 Sep 2012 2:46 pm

I call myself "Ang Moh" when in the presence of Singaporeans. It sure beats the American word "Caucasians" - I don't want to have anything to do with those quarrelsome tribes in the hills between Russia and Turkey!

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Postby v4jr4 » Fri, 07 Sep 2012 2:59 pm

beppi wrote:I call myself "Ang Moh" when in the presence of Singaporeans. It sure beats the American word "Caucasians" - I don't want to have anything to do with those quarrelsome tribes in the hills between Russia and Turkey!


:lol:
I used to describe myself as "pek lang" (Hokkien, means white guy [CMIIW]) since I was not yellow enough :P
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