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Need help..

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dhiv
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Need help..

Postby dhiv » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 7:24 pm

Hi guys,

I am new to singapore moved in 2 months ago. Ever since I moved i have been looking out for jobs, I have an MBA in finance and also have 4 yrs experience in equity research. I have been unable to find a job, though singapore is considered to be a financial hub.

Most of the ads i see need mandarin speaking skills which i dont have. I am all the more confused to know that the ideal resume is a one pager. I have spoken to many consultants but none of them seem to be interested. I am not sure if its my resume or language skills thats the issue here.

Kindly help me analyse whats wrong... thanks

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 19 Feb 2012 8:07 pm

Need more info.

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Re: Need help..

Postby skkamandy » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:14 am

dhiv wrote:Hi guys,

I am new to singapore moved in 2 months ago. Ever since I moved i have been looking out for jobs, I have an MBA in finance and also have 4 yrs experience in equity research. I have been unable to find a job, though singapore is considered to be a financial hub.

Most of the ads i see need mandarin speaking skills which i dont have. I am all the more confused to know that the ideal resume is a one pager. I have spoken to many consultants but none of them seem to be interested. I am not sure if its my resume or language skills thats the issue here.

Kindly help me analyse whats wrong... thanks


Hi,

I am also interested to know the ideal number of pages for resume. I can write good Chinese (my mother tongue) and speak mandarin but not fluent. However, I seldom find jobs that required fluent mandarin.
Kam

dhiv
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Postby dhiv » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 6:25 pm

Hi, may I ask what info you need? My apologies if I am rude here..

Ever since I began applying for jobs here, I haven't received any calls at all. Even if there was a perfect match, these consultants say they would go through my resume and get back to me, which never happens.

Wondering why??

Tnx

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Postby sweetgazebo » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 7:32 pm

There was an earlier post from someone also on a job hunt and is having it tough. You might want to see what are some of the proceeding responses to the op.

dhiv wrote:Hi, may I ask what info you need? My apologies if I am rude here..

Ever since I began applying for jobs here, I haven't received any calls at all. Even if there was a perfect match, these consultants say they would go through my resume and get back to me, which never happens.

Wondering why??

Tnx

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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 7:35 pm

dhiv wrote:Hi, may I ask what info you need? My apologies if I am rude here..

Well I think SMS meant (and I'd concur) that you need to provide more specific details about what the jobs were, what your relevant experience level was in each case, etc.

Ever since I began applying for jobs here, I haven't received any calls at all. Even if there was a perfect match, these consultants say they would go through my resume and get back to me, which never happens.

Wondering why??

Did you try calling them and asking? If you explain that you are just looking for honest feedback, you may get some useful information that way. Or you may not, but it's worth a try.

I don't work in the industry that you're trying to get into, but in the current climate I'd suspect there are a large number of 'perfect match' applications for every opening (including from Singaporeans), so it's probably not altogether unexpected that you've not been successful yet.

Without more specifics it's difficult to be of further assistance, but perhaps a good starting point would be to take a hard look at each job and review how you went about the application. Were you really (if you're 100% honest with yourself) a 'perfect match'? If so, was the CV you submitted written in such a way to highlight that, for the specific job you applied for? How did you go about applying? There is no fool-proof formula of course, but many people advise that you should make your initial contact by phone, not by email (where you are just one of dozens, or more likely hundreds, in a list), and to try to arrange a face-to-face meeting as the next step, or at least in parallel with sending in your CV.

And there are obviously many schools of thought about CV formats too. My approach (after talking to the recruiter first) would be to put together a targetted, job-specific, one-page summary CV, with a 'detailed career history' behind it (again, written to highlight the relevancy of experience to the job under discussion), so that if the reader's appetite is whetted, they have more information to hand that they can study.

Maybe you did all this, or used some other, equally good or better, strategy? If so, please give details of what you've already tried and I'm sure there will be folks willing to help with further suggestions.
Be careful what you wish for

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 8:03 pm

How about taking a job advert and calling up. If you reach an HR 'gatekeeper' discuss it with them or better still find out who the decision maker is going to be on it and speak to them.

Ten odd years ago I went to a workshop where this approach was demonstrated. There were maybe twelve of us in the room, and the host had a phone with a loudspeaker attached. He tossed a few papers on the table (FT, Times, Guardian etc) and asked us to pick some job adverts.

He then set about calling each one. We could hear the 2-way conversation, the receiving party was unaware of this. In most instances he got to speak to someone in a position to tell him more about what the job entailed and what was required, and at the least he then had the name of a contact and could follow up in writing as 'Further to our conversation of xyz'. In a few instances he got the name and straight through to the person doing the hiring. Some of the relevant people were unavailble, but at least he got their names to follow-up on.

It was really fascinating, and we sat around the table all a bit stunned at the brazen-ness of his approach. He'd ask them ... 'So the job is described as xyz which is fine, but what other skills or qualities are there that you're really looking for, what will make the difference?'. This was something he kept going back to with us, that the job description is often just a template description, meanwhile what will swing it is frequently unspoken - unless you get to speak to them.

Quite amazing really, these were FTSE-100 companies he was calling, and the cues and leads he was getting simply by asking were extraordinary. I remember after the 1/2 day feeling like I'd been in the presence of a magician or illusionist it was that surreal what he got just by being bold enough to ask.

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Postby Mi Amigo » Mon, 20 Feb 2012 8:20 pm

Fascinating stuff, which really goes to prove the value of picking up the phone and talking to people until you find out what you need (and get your name embedded in their thought process). One of the potential pitfalls of modern life is that most of us have all this technology at hand, making it so easy to just 'click here to apply' and fire off a bog-standard CV. Back in ye olden times (and I go back to the days of telex) you had to think more about what you were going to communicate and plan your phone call, follow-up letter, etc.

One carefully crafted, targetted job application (call and follow up) is usually worth more than 100 'shotgun' applications with the 'default' CV and covering letter/email. Think quality, not quantity.
Be careful what you wish for

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Postby nutnut » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 8:47 am

JR8 wrote:How about taking a job advert and calling up. If you reach an HR 'gatekeeper' discuss it with them or better still find out who the decision maker is going to be on it and speak to them.

Ten odd years ago I went to a workshop where this approach was demonstrated. There were maybe twelve of us in the room, and the host had a phone with a loudspeaker attached. He tossed a few papers on the table (FT, Times, Guardian etc) and asked us to pick some job adverts.

He then set about calling each one. We could hear the 2-way conversation, the receiving party was unaware of this. In most instances he got to speak to someone in a position to tell him more about what the job entailed and what was required, and at the least he then had the name of a contact and could follow up in writing as 'Further to our conversation of xyz'. In a few instances he got the name and straight through to the person doing the hiring. Some of the relevant people were unavailble, but at least he got their names to follow-up on.

It was really fascinating, and we sat around the table all a bit stunned at the brazen-ness of his approach. He'd ask them ... 'So the job is described as xyz which is fine, but what other skills or qualities are there that you're really looking for, what will make the difference?'. This was something he kept going back to with us, that the job description is often just a template description, meanwhile what will swing it is frequently unspoken - unless you get to speak to them.

Quite amazing really, these were FTSE-100 companies he was calling, and the cues and leads he was getting simply by asking were extraordinary. I remember after the 1/2 day feeling like I'd been in the presence of a magician or illusionist it was that surreal what he got just by being bold enough to ask.


That's what a good b2b salesman does in most cold calling situations! It's dead easy, once you have the balls :)
nutnut

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Postby dhiv » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 8:47 am

Thanks guys for the help. I'll give you more specific details here. Yes I have made changes to highlight the needed skills to suit the job opening every time I apply. I have also called up the person who posted the ad and followed it up with my CV. None of the consultants have communicated that they would like to have a one on one discussion with me. Inspite of me bringing it up, the usual reply I get is that they would go through my profile and call me back if short listed. I see that most job openings prefer to have mandarin speaking skills, but not absolutely essential.
As I have done MBA majoring in finance and I have 4 yrs experience as an investment analyst/ equity research, I have been applying to jobs within the same space. However in a new country I can't expect to find the perfect match without any local experience, hence I am also open to work in any related field that helps me leverage on my MBA. Yet I don't get many responses.

May be just unlucky here..😔

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 9:21 am

nutnut wrote:
JR8 wrote:How about taking a job advert and calling up. If you reach an HR 'gatekeeper' discuss it with them or better still find out who the decision maker is going to be on it and speak to them.

Ten odd years ago I went to a workshop where this approach was demonstrated. There were maybe twelve of us in the room, and the host had a phone with a loudspeaker attached. He tossed a few papers on the table (FT, Times, Guardian etc) and asked us to pick some job adverts.

He then set about calling each one. We could hear the 2-way conversation, the receiving party was unaware of this. In most instances he got to speak to someone in a position to tell him more about what the job entailed and what was required, and at the least he then had the name of a contact and could follow up in writing as 'Further to our conversation of xyz'. In a few instances he got the name and straight through to the person doing the hiring. Some of the relevant people were unavailble, but at least he got their names to follow-up on.

It was really fascinating, and we sat around the table all a bit stunned at the brazen-ness of his approach. He'd ask them ... 'So the job is described as xyz which is fine, but what other skills or qualities are there that you're really looking for, what will make the difference?'. This was something he kept going back to with us, that the job description is often just a template description, meanwhile what will swing it is frequently unspoken - unless you get to speak to them.

Quite amazing really, these were FTSE-100 companies he was calling, and the cues and leads he was getting simply by asking were extraordinary. I remember after the 1/2 day feeling like I'd been in the presence of a magician or illusionist it was that surreal what he got just by being bold enough to ask.


That's what a good b2b salesman does in most cold calling situations! It's dead easy, once you have the balls :)


But it is not really a rocket science. Just a common sense approach unless you have completely no instincts when it comes to every day psychology. What is more important than gathering data is that there is no person behind an e-mail. This way of communication does not provide any accountable emotional engagement between the parties. Creates no emotional obligations. If you call and talk to somebody you are not a number in the files any longer and it is more difficult to flush your CV down the toilet with the rest of the candidates.
What I normally recommend is to find out who will be your direct boss and try to contact her/him directly. You can send your CV first but in a week or two if no response you should follow up by giving a call.

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Postby sweetgazebo » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 9:36 am

It will be interesting to know how a job seeker will be able to get straight through to the hiring manager. I always reach through to HR first however knowing that HR is just the gatekeeper, I will try to find out the name of the hiring person but have never been successful so far. HR is over-zealously guarding their that tiny space (for which they know they aren't the final decision-makers, but still they want to exert control!).

There was one stage where I tried to get HR to drop some names but I got the impression that the more I tried to pry her to do so the more 'suspicious' she got to the point where she finally told me that she was busy and that the hiring manager will revert if I am shortlisted.


JR8 wrote:How about taking a job advert and calling up. If you reach an HR 'gatekeeper' discuss it with them or better still find out who the decision maker is going to be on it and speak to them.

Ten odd years ago I went to a workshop where this approach was demonstrated. There were maybe twelve of us in the room, and the host had a phone with a loudspeaker attached. He tossed a few papers on the table (FT, Times, Guardian etc) and asked us to pick some job adverts.

He then set about calling each one. We could hear the 2-way conversation, the receiving party was unaware of this. In most instances he got to speak to someone in a position to tell him more about what the job entailed and what was required, and at the least he then had the name of a contact and could follow up in writing as 'Further to our conversation of xyz'. In a few instances he got the name and straight through to the person doing the hiring. Some of the relevant people were unavailble, but at least he got their names to follow-up on.

It was really fascinating, and we sat around the table all a bit stunned at the brazen-ness of his approach. He'd ask them ... 'So the job is described as xyz which is fine, but what other skills or qualities are there that you're really looking for, what will make the difference?'. This was something he kept going back to with us, that the job description is often just a template description, meanwhile what will swing it is frequently unspoken - unless you get to speak to them.

Quite amazing really, these were FTSE-100 companies he was calling, and the cues and leads he was getting simply by asking were extraordinary. I remember after the 1/2 day feeling like I'd been in the presence of a magician or illusionist it was that surreal what he got just by being bold enough to ask.

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Postby teck21 » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:09 am

Your field of expertise is extremely contact dependent, so not having any severely hampers your ability to find something decent.

And now's generally not a very opportune time to seek employment of the type you seek.

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Postby dhiv » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:05 am

Thanks for the responses guys.

Ok when you say Extremely contact dependent, do you mean that in this field, I can land a job easily through referrals rather than consultants? And also you mentioned that now is not the right time to seek employment? May i ask y do u think so? And when is the right time to find openings?

Also I am on a dependent pass, is that also a big issue here, but if it really was I should at least be able attract initial calls from consultants to clarify about the same isnt it?

Also most of the openings that I see on the websites are posted by consultants and only when they feel that there may be a match will they call up. Initial round of conversation is about the role and brief about past experience, Often so they are not even ready to reveal the JD so that I could modify my resume accordingly.

So speaking to the hiring manager doesn't work here.. 😔

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Postby ecureilx » Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:26 am

sweetgazebo wrote:There was one stage where I tried to get HR to drop some names but I got the impression that the more I tried to pry her to do so the more 'suspicious' she got to the point where she finally told me that she was busy and that the hiring manager will revert if I am shortlisted.


Well, it was quoted before .. that one too many "HR SPECIALISTS" have no clue about job description and all.

Like the case, I mentioned before, a colleague who was being interviewed went something like ..

Q: Are you good in Windows ?
A: Yes
Q: Do you have MCSE ?
A: Yes
Q: How many years hands on experience you have in Windows Servers and Active directory ?
A: 6 Years
Q: How about Windows Server ? Are you certified ?
A: Yes, certified
Q: How about Active Directory (which is the main portion of MCSE, for those no in the know)
A: Yes, I am certified
Q: How about Windows Server Administration
A: Yes, I am certified
Q: Do you have Windows Domain Knowledge
A: Yes
Q: How are you in Wintel Servers (windows Intel servers)
A: yes
Q: how many years experience in Wintel
A: 6 years
Q: then you have 6 years experience in Windows server and another 6 years in Wintel ? so 12 years ?

At this point, my friend decided to ask her if she knows what she is talking about .. as the question on MCSE and Experience covered all else, and she was asking redundant question. The recruiter admitted that she is not an IT person, and is asking questions as per the customers job profile ..

Our friend went on to tell her that she should spend some time, and understand if she is claiming to 'specialise' in IT recruitment, about jobs skills such

Needless to say, he was not shortlisted, and the Recruiter had implied that he had insulted her ..

And some more ? I had the privilege of being asked about my L3 switch exposure and I said "Excellent" and then next question ? "How about L2 Swtiches ?" I innocently said that L2 switches are no brainers, if somebody is proficient in L3 .. " the recruiter was not impressed with that kind of smart answers ..

And it only got better another time, when an agent asked me to describe how data is written to a disk, something I learnt in 1990, and instantly forgot, as nobody is keen to remember, unless you are working on disk/data level. And the job requirement had nothing to do with disks - it was pure sys-admin.

And it only makes it fun, when the HR at companies, atleast a few, have no domain knowledge and they prepare the job profile, and the idea of 'must have' vs 'like to have' doesn't work mostly and they prepare questions from 'possible questions to ask a candidate' stuff ..

Hence, my advice, if the recruiter is misfiring ..

Talk nicely, and tell the recruiter to 'send my resume to the client, while I may not seem to meet the complete job description, I believe I will be able to meet the customer requirement' and then I pray like hell that the recruiter does it .. sometimes, it happened .. and atleast I got to walk into interviews to present myself .. which overcame the biggest stumbling block - clueless recruiters and, sometimes, equally clueless HR people at the client end who do the shortlisting.


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